At the WJC/Chovevei/Catholic Shindig
Cardinal Ricard (top right) learns Tractate Berachot with Cardinal Erdo (bottom left) and rabbinical student Sorin Rosen.
RicardErdoLearning.jpgIsrael Singer opens with a dedication to R’ Avi Weiss, founder of Chovevei, saying in part “I know of no other Jewish leader who gave of his life for civil rights” and so forth.
In general, as the Catholic delegation arrived, the casual dress of the Chovevei students seemed a starker difference than it perhaps usually is. Wait — one student showed up late with a suit and tie.
In attendance is, per usual with Jewish meetings, Cardinal Jean Marie Lustiger, the new Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, and the Hungarian Cardinal Peter Erdo, in addition to various bishops, priests, etc.
Perhaps predictably, Weiss in his speech announces that the yeshiva will be singing a Carlebach song as a welcome. “Because of our family and friends,” it begins. “This is the house, the house of the Lord,” it continues. Never heard it. Oh, then it’s in Hebrew: “L’maan achai v’reyai” — got it.
Weiss continues: “We remeber the soul of Ilan Halimi, and reach out to you and ask your help in confronting anti-Semitism. The Bible tells us that there was darkness everywhere; indeed, God’s first words in the Bible are ‘yehi or,’ — ‘let there be light’ — and the light pushed away all the darkness. We live in a world of too much darkness, too much violence, too much war, too much war perpetrated in the name of God…may we always seek peace in the world, and peace in Jerusalem…”
“…We at our yeshiva are committed to confirming the shared divine image of all people, and are affirming our responsibility to improve the world and our capacity to be enriched by it. I have a dream, it’s a deep-seated dream, it emerges from the deepest part of my soul; I have a dream of Jew, Christian, and all Muslim people being able to live in peace…”
“…As Catholic and Jewish communities have made significant strides in understanding each other, and we have made significant strides, I offer a prayer that similar progress be made with our Muslim brothers.”
R’ Dov Linzer provides a history of Jewish textual development. “Today with the students you’ll be learning a passage from the Tractate Berachot, to learn where the practice of three daily prayers came from.”
So, when the Catholic delegation visits Chovevei, they’re actively taught Talmud. Compare that with previous comments from Yeshiva University’s R’ Hershel Schachter.
Cardinals, bishops, rabbinical students and others hold hands and sway while singing at the conclusion of today’s dialogue.
March 27th, 2006 at 11:19 am
That would be the 3rd perek of Berachos, the gemara that discusses Tfilast Avos Tiknam and Tefila Keneged Temidim Tiknam - the discussion of whether the 3 daily paryers were instituted by the forefathers or if they are based on the daily sacrifices. The conclusion is of course that the fathers did establish the tefilos and the rabana based them on the korbanos - Tefilas Avos Tiknam, Vasamchinhu rabana akorbanos.
Anywho Last year at yu the Cardinals got a very lengthy lesson from rabbi charlop on the development of the talmud when he took them into the seforim sale, and they gathered by the artcroll gemara section - it also happened to be the morning of the siyum hashas and he got to give an elaborate explanation of it all.
March 27th, 2006 at 11:20 am
typo rabanan
March 27th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Ahm, what comment by Rabbi HS?
Oy, Avi Weiss.
What a blowhard.
…and wasn’t Rabbi Steve Riskin also active in the Civil Rights Movement?
March 27th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
didnt they learn with guys in the beis medrash at yu the first time they came?
March 27th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
I am at a loss to understand what anyone could possibly think this is going to accomplish.
So many Jews out there with no one to learn with, and we are breaking open gemaras with Catholic priests and begging for fellowship with Muslim brothers. What a set of misplaced priorities.
I credit you, by the way, for noticing the difference between the slovenly appearance of our Jewish ambassadors to the gentile world and their ambassadors to us. Don’t think they didn’t notice, and don’t think it doesn’t matter. Even in attempting to be a light unto the Nations, we don’t bother with a clean shirt? So many confused and mixed signals; it really amounts to nothing more than a form of cultural masturbation.
March 27th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
It is truly beautiful. However, they should stop pretending that they are an authentic continuation of RYBS et al. They have made a break with the accepted sociology - if not theology - of MO. Whether this break, in an hundred years, will lead them to where CJ is today or not is the real question. I am not sure. But isn’t it better to err on the side of caution? Nothing is lost if we don’t serve at the altar of YCT, and if we choose to worship there, then perhaps everything will be lost. Is this a risk we should be taking? Or is it a self-serving risk poised to boost the egos of individuals who did not have an audience at YU?
March 27th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
The Town Crier, it’s actually the fourth perek, and we were specifically looking at 26b.
Ron Coleman, who says people weren’t wearing clean shirts? Chovevei guys are not exactly the dirtiest rabbinical students. The point wasn’t for stam learning with them, but rather that they could be exposed to Jewish learning.
BTW, it was actually funny to me that when I tried explaining something to one of the bishops, he said, “I know. I learned it when I was in Jerusalem years back.” Don’t think they haven’t already learned a little.
March 27th, 2006 at 6:51 pm
Color me unimpressed with their bekius, Drew!
March 27th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
Ron, this is a treemendous milestone for a civil relationship between the two religions that never existed. Perhaps our grandchildren wont have to suffer as our grandparents did because people take the time to create a mutual understanding now. Talk to the educators if you have a problem with misplaced priorities.
March 27th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
Catholic clergy are about the last problem the Jews have today. They’re almost entirely irrelevant to their own congregations. Catholic antisemitism is largely a non-issue, and for that I am grateful; in fact, there is probably more anti-Catholicism among Jews (I would venture among Jewish clergy as well) than among Catholic leaders. We also have friends, and good ones, in the evangelical world.
But Jews and Israel are anathema in the Anglican church, and it is simply realism to acknowledge that we are far worse than that among 99% of the Muslim world. The former are also largely irrelevant in terms of religious leadership, although their cultural influence in the UK, where antisemitism has grown, is evidently meaningful. But our grandchildren will not have anything to fear from Christians, Catholic or otherwise, under almost any scenario. Nor, for that matter, is interfaith dialogue with Muslims at all realistic.
What are grandchildren have to fear most in this tekufah is their own ignorance, and our own misguided priorities in avodas Hashem, kiruv rechokim and chinuch. In my (as you can tell) humble opinion!
March 27th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
Drew, i was only guessing and enjoying my word for word memory of alot fo that specific perek.
March 27th, 2006 at 8:12 pm
I don’t deny any of the long list of issues our grandchildren will face, those which you mention and those unmentioned. The fact that less than 60 years ago the roman catholic church was no friend of the jews and that only recently PJPII apologized for that spoke volumes to a new relationship in a history which was very very ugly for hundreds of years.
You make it sound like its a good thin we have evangelical friends - would you say that cultivating those rlationships is that not alos then a misplaced priority? Or if it is a good thing, then why not an understanding with the Roman Catholic Church? Did you ever consider that perhaps through these summits the last few years we jews are fullfilling our role as a “light unto the nations” by showing them our adherence to ancient customs and forms of study that they then can use as examples to their own communities? Moreover, these cardinals are people that were also indoctrinated with the idea that we jews were very bad people. To come see us firsthand as friendly nice people is to diffuse and overturn decades of libel and mistrust.
Like i said our childrens ignorance, chinuch and kiruv rechokim should be OUR and our educators’ first and foremost priorities.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
We can and should have good relatinoships with Christians. Learning gemara with them is, however, just showmanship (as well as raising halachic problems). It has little do with how religionists at the rank and file level deal with each other–as witness (so to speak) the positive relations with evangelicals.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
Who learned gemara with Christians? Evangelicals are christians. The cardinals are part of the Roman Catholic Church. You talk sophisticated but obviously can’t differentiate between what you speak of.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
By the way - one visit to a beis medrash or two once a year is not “learning gemara with them” you make it soud like the “partners in torah” program.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:25 am
This makes me nauseous. Why is it so important to reach out to the Catholic church, the same church that perpetrated heinous crimes against us for millenia? Does anyone think it will achieve anything other then relieve their conscience?
March 28th, 2006 at 11:53 am
Steve,
What are “Yeshiva University’s R’ Hershel Schachter” comments? can you post them or a link to them.
My problem with this is not one of Halacha, I am not a Posek. However, I do think there are so many more important issues pressing the Jewish Community today. Why do we need to spend out time, money and resources hosting catholic clergy?
Let’s call this what it is: A big time PR event. And, nothing else.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Town Crier, Roman Catholicism is a Christian denomination. In fact, it is the oldest one. And learning gemara with them once or twice a year is the very definition of showmanship, and nothing more, because no real learning takes place (nor, as I alluded to earler, should it).
Sorry you are having trouble following me. Try arguing without ad hominems. Just try it to see what it might be like.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Sfunny, cuz i dont remeber one camera at last years visit to yu. who was the showman ship for exactly?
Love the jab at your “ad hominem” outro. nice touch.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
“This makes me nauseous. Why is it so important to reach out to the Catholic church, the same church that perpetrated heinous crimes against us for millenia?
Asked and answered!
March 28th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Thanks for the story. I put a link to this on my website (http://www.mazel123.blogspot.com/). Ricky Ricardo
March 29th, 2006 at 4:32 am
A huge number of Rome’s Jews survived by being hidden in the Vatican, in the Pope’s residence, and in other Church buildings. And guess what? The Church got kosher food for them as well.
Funny how they don’t teach you that at YU.
March 29th, 2006 at 9:40 am
The Vatican never sheltered a “huge number of Jews”. Yes, individual Jews were sheltered, but please produce citations that show that the numbers were significant. The church also proseltytized the Jews that they sheltered.
March 29th, 2006 at 9:49 am
Shmarya, who didn’t teach what to who at YU?
March 29th, 2006 at 10:51 am
That’s the perek where they describe that a brachah was added to Shemoneh Esreih against the Jews who embraced early Christianity.
Deliciously ironic. What pathetic clueless leaders you have at your “yeshiva.”
March 29th, 2006 at 12:59 pm
I like the nestle quik next to the sefer. Incredible brand placement.
March 30th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
If one considers the historical relationship of the Catholic Church and the Talmud, “the burnt book,” as one author put it, one would realize that this is an ENORMOUS kiddush Hashem of epic historical proportion. Catcholic Cardinals paying homage to the Talmud and covering up their crosses, coming to Jews to respectfully hear what they have to say.
Don’t be knee-jerk. Look at the grand sweep of history.
March 30th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
not only that, but they get to see ancient history living in modern america. they are blown away when they see rabinnical seminary students studying in a way they though only existed in their history books.
March 30th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
This isn’t history. Ecumenicism is not a popular cultural shift. Catholicism no longer rules the West, and the laiety care little if at all for the demonstrations (or remonstrations) of the episcopate. If you think about it, this fascination with how nice the bishops are bespeaks, really, the ghetto mentality that we were all supposed to be past.
March 31st, 2006 at 7:33 am
“By the way - one visit to a beis medrash or two once a year is not “learning gemara with themâ€? you make it soud like the “partners in torahâ€? program.”
So there’s a shiur on melamed torah l’akum?
April 4th, 2006 at 12:18 am
Two thousand years of pogroms, and they do this!?
Ve’hu Rachum Yechaper Avone