Chabad Leadership Gearing Up To Take On Messianists
While last week’s 770 decision passed without much comment, the leadership of the movement as embodied by its central organization — Agudas Chasidei Chabad — sees it as a watershed moment allowing it to take on the messianists in the sect with a move they’ve long been hoping for. For them, this isn’t just about the right to keep a cornerstone plaque referring to the late Rebbe as “of blessed memory.”
Rabbi Avraham Shemtov, chairman of the executive committee of Agudas, said in a phone interview yesterday that “There are many things that we have refrained from doing in order to avoid confrontation and in order to avoid unnecessary conflict,” and that now, with the legal decision in hand, they will endeavor to restrict “the access and the over-excessive access by individuals whose beliefs and whose conduct is completely foreign to the Lubavitch movement,” referring to the messianists who’ve been occupying 770.
Responding to the common assumption that the reason why the messianist element within 770 has remained is because of political considerations or a lack of desire to see it gone, Shemtov said “That is completely incorrect; the desire has always been there, but there were considerations that could not have been avoided” before the ruling. Now, he said, Agudas is “weighing the immediate steps to implement the permissions that come with it.”
So, what will 770 look like six months or two years down the line? “770 will look as it should, reflecting the beliefs and the direction of Lubavitch which is all-inclusive, a place for everybody to feel at home and to feel inspired to conduct themselves as a Jew and a Yid should…I think that we are concerned about the prevailing atmosphere and spirit which would be in accordance with the Rebbe’s teaching, and if [the messianist signs are] an impediment, of course” they’d be removed. Shemtov generally sought to downplay the significance of the signs as merely “symbols” and to assert that the more important effort is addressing the messianism itself and the presence and tactics of the messianists within 770, saying “symbols are very important, don’t misunderstand me, but what is more important is what those symbols reflect and what they represent, and why they’re still there.”
As to the signs, “I don’t think they have ever reflected what 770 stands for,” he said, noting “look, Lubavitch went through a very difficult period, and turmoil, and what you are seeing now is the settling of the dust, and people begin to realize what are we really there for.”
We then got into the question of how many messianists there are. I mentioned that I’ve been having an e-mail dialogue with David Berger after he responded negatively to my writing in an article on Matisyahu that messianists are a “fringe group,” with Berger claiming that messianists are actually a majority of the movement.
So, how many messianists does Shemtov think are a part of Lubavitch? “None…how can you justify classifying somebody who is perceived as subscribing to something which is so foreign and consider them part of the movement?” He said messianists are “a loud minority of a minority” and that, further, “I believe that no one has ever come across anyone who is authorized to be a shliach and carry that badge of honor that would in any way imply any of these beliefs, period.”
But what about the statement from Russian shlichim that Berger cites in his book? “I don’t know specifically what you’re referring to, but I can’t believe that such a statement would come out and would not be censured…because it’s the opposite of what we stand for.” This would seem to be worth more discussion and analysis.
So, what specific strategies can we expect to see from the leadership to remove messianists? “It is now in the discussion stages.”
Is the entirety of the Agudas board of the same attitude as Shemtov toward removing the messianists? While Shemtov says they’ve yet to discuss it in light of the decision, “I imagine it’s more or less with the thinking of Agudas Chasidei Chabad.”
March 22nd, 2006 at 11:03 am
The worst part of this is that David Berger will have to get a new hobby.
March 22nd, 2006 at 12:10 pm
I’m cautiously optimistic about all of this. Maybe if they start cleaning up 770, I’ll start davening there again more often. This reaction from the top has been a long time coming.
March 22nd, 2006 at 12:40 pm
We will get proof that they are serious of rooting out the messianists when they return to the main element of chasidut and appoint a new rebbe.
March 22nd, 2006 at 3:41 pm
I would like to point out a deceptive line of reasoning used by the non moshiachists in defending their messianic cult. Rabbi J. Immanuel Schochet, a noted Chabad scholar in the following essay attacks Dr. Berger’s thesis. Schochet in bitter irony remarks that “The author (Berger) appears to accept the belief in Mashiach and the eager anticipation of the redemption he is to bring about. After all, this constitutes one of the thirteen principles of the Jewish faith defined by Maimonides.� Wonderful, Schochet establishes that Berger is not a kofer.
Schochet continues “He takes issue, though, with the fact that hasidim identify the Rebbe as the awaited redeemer. He is not disturbed by this phenomenon in the Rebbe’s lifetime: Quoting Berger now, “When the Rebbe was alive, messianic claims made for him were ill-advised but well within the boundaries of normative Judaism; indeed, no serious messianic claims have ever been set forth for a more qualified candidate.” Schochet explains thatâ€?His (Berger’s) problem is that many hasidim continue doing so even after the Rebbe’s passing in 1994â€?. Schochet now closes in for the kill “Citing Talmudic-Midrashic statements which aver that the redeemer may arise from the dead, these hasidim support their claim that the Rebbe may be resurrected in due time and then fulfil the messianic prophecies. To Dr. Berger that is absurd. He spurns the possibility that Mashiach may come from the dead, and dismisses the Rabbinic statements as “a rejected position” of a minute minority opinion which has no standing in Jewish law and thought.
Here lies the crux of the problem facing Lubavitch. Lubavitchers do NOT believe that the “the Rebbe may be resurrected in due time and then fulfill the messianic prophecies.� They believe that the Rebbe IS the moshiach. Only a fringe minority hold the Rebbe not to be the moshiach. The rest just differ in tactics.
March 22nd, 2006 at 11:59 pm
Obsolutely correct.
And a further note. Schochet did not write his essay against Berger in a vacuum. He wrote it with the APPROVAL of Agudas Chasidei Chabad – meaning he wrote it with the approval of Rabbi Avraham ShemTov.
The average Chabadnik is a messianist – but he may not be a yellow flag waving overt messianist. The shluchim are quiet messianists, with exceptions – especially in France, Russia and Israel, where overt messianism is dominant.
This war Shemtov may fight is against a fringe element of the overt messianists, the Sfasniks that occupy 770. This group is the most overt of the overt messianists. They believe the Rebbe is alive and standing in front of them.
The problem here is that journalists and outside rabbis do not understand the politics and groupings, and they over simplify the situation. Most overt messianists want the Sfasniks thrown out of 770. And, very quietly, Shemtov himself hints at what is to come:
I had posted on my old website (the one Chabad hacked and destroyed) an entire archive of overt messianism from shluchim all over the world. That Shemtov claims not to know what Berger is referring to is an open lie. That he can utter it in relative safety speaks volumes for how the media has, until now, covered this truly sad story.
March 23rd, 2006 at 12:14 am
So, if messianist signs keep more people away from Chabad than draw people to Chabad, the signs come down. If not they stay up. Some fighter of messianism.
March 23rd, 2006 at 2:45 am
Shmarya writes, “The problem here is that journalists and outside rabbis do not understand the politics and groupings, and they over simplify the situation. Most overt messianists want the Sfasniks thrown out of 770.”
He is 100% right on. This ‘cleaning house’ is just a deceptive toning down. Mainstream Jewish journalism is duped. Note Dennis Prager’s defence of Chabad here ...
Prager, an astute individual but an outsider as Lubavitch goes, notwithstanding that Prager has lectured for Chabad in many communities around the world and states that “I am on the board of directors of the Conejo Jewish Day School, a Chabad-run community school in Agoura, Calif.” He is Chabad’s useful idiot, and serves as a shill.
And if Prager, no neophyte to Torah Judasim is so duped kal v’chomer to the vast majority of secular Jewish and gentile press.
March 23rd, 2006 at 2:50 am
Prager’s article can be found here. ...
March 23rd, 2006 at 9:22 am
Shmarya - In order to say that Shemtov maintains the same theology as the messianists, you must assume he’s lying to me. When asked how many people there are in Lubavitch who feel that Schneerson is the messiah (the actual text of my question, as opposed to the paraphrase above), his response was “None…how can you justify classifying somebody who is perceived as subscribing to something which is so foreign and consider them part of the movement?”
Note that in reference to the messianists, he said “whose beliefs and whose conduct is completely foreign to the Lubavitch movement.”
An additional quote I didn’t include in the summary above: the judge’s ruling ” is clearing the way, but not clearing the atmosphere and the idea,” which is the responsibility of “those in charge to do what they’re supposed to do.”
Another quote: he explicitly said that the problem with the messianists is not that they are “not keeping it a secret” because “it is their duty to share their views.”
Note also that your views on this subject go farther than those of David Berger. I take offense at your repeated claim that I somehow can’t get at this story because I’m a journalist; I’m the one who speaks to Lubavitch leadership about these issues on a detailed basis, not you. You can claim that these people are lying to me, but nothing short of that can get you off the hook for claiming what you are here.
March 23rd, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Canonist writes “When asked how many people there are in Lubavitch who feel that Schneerson is the messiah (the actual text of my question, as opposed to the paraphrase above), his response was “None…how can you justify classifying somebody who is perceived as subscribing to something which is so foreign and consider them part of the movement?â€?
Your question to R’ Shemtov is far too vague. He can parse the question any which way. He could think that you are alluding to the moshiachists that do not visit or ‘hold’ of the Rebbe’s grave. Could be you’re referring to an active group that claims the Rebbe has been sighted in France and elsewhere.
You are throwing softballs at him and he’s glad handing you. Take your journalist mittens off and go for it. Ask him if the majority of Lubavitchers support their claim that the Rebbe may be resurrected in due time and then fulfill the messianic prophecies. Here lies the truth. My guess is that he will take the party line and like Schochet claim that this lies well within the norms of Torah Judaism. Schochet, to his credit reported that R. Aaron Soloveichik regarded the attribution of messiahship to the deceased Rebbe as a shtut (folly).
Now you have Shemtov between a rock and a hard place. Go in for the ‘kill’, and you will have one of the leading “Rabonim” of this messianic cult either having to admit that the majority of Lubavitchers have descended into folly or that R. Aaron Soloveichik was wrong.
Canonist, go to work!!
March 23rd, 2006 at 2:46 pm
I can’t believe you fall for Shemtov’s lies. 1/2 of what he told you is demonstrably false. His claim that no shluchim believe the Rebbe to be Moshiach is particularly ludicrouos. Hundreds of shluchim publicize this belief openly. Even among those who do not (the so-called “anti-meshichisten”), the belief is universal. Call a random sampling of 100 shluchim and I doubt you’ll find one who will deny believing that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Some will proclaim the belief proudly while others will hedge but few if any will deny it.
A few factual corrections:
1) Shemtov is not a Rov.
2) Mendel Sharf is not a party to last week’s decision. Sharf and the other named defendants never challenged the TRO. The judge severed the case against them from the case against the shul. Sharf and the other named defendants never challenged the TRO.
3) Last week’s decision came in the form of a memo granting Agudas and Merkoz summary judgment. It remains to be seen what kind of order they will propose and whether the court accepts it.
4) Any order will most likely be stayed pending appeal (as was the case in the Satmar case).
March 23rd, 2006 at 3:27 pm
O.K., let’s get some things straight over here. The Messianists that everyone refers to believe as follows:
1) Nothing happened on the 3rd of Tammuz, 5754, to the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
2) The Rebee is Moshiach to the exclusion of all others.
3) It is the duty of all Lubavitchers to make this the central point of the message of Lubavitch and to prevail upon world Jewry to follow this belief.
That is the view of the loud minority of the minority.
Now let’s talk about what the vast majority of Lubavitchers (from all sides) believe:
1) The events of the 3rd Tammuz, 5754, included the physical passing of the Lubavitcher Rebbe thereby requiring the three halachic requirments upon survivors: Tahara, Levaya, and Kvura.
2) The reference to the Lubavitcher Rebbe as alive by any Lubavitcher basically means that a) our continued devotion to his teachings as his living adherents make him alive [also known as the meaning of “Mah Zar’oh B’chayim Af Hu B’chayim]; and b) whereas the spiritual life of a Tzaddik is the primary identity to which the Tzaddik relates, and the soul never dies, the Rebbe is alive and well. The majority of Moshiachistin who deny this verbally can be found flocking to the Rebbe’s Ohel on a regular basis.
3) The Rebbe cannot abdicate his position merely by passing away physically. Therefore, one may continue to seek the blessings of the Rebbe through the various accepted media that THE REBBES ESTABLISHED, i.e., 1) speaking to a mashpia (advisor), 2) beseeching the Rebbe at the Ohel or any other place where he led the Chassidim, 3) placing requests in holy books of the Rebbe. The last one may be controversial due to the opportunities for abuse and dishonesty in procuring the responses. However, individuals requesting answers to individual problems have a right to follow this avenue for seeking guidance for which there is a HALACHIC basis going back to the times of the Mishna.
4) Belief in the Rebbe as Moshiach can be broken down as follows:
a) Again, the The Rebbe cannot abdicate his position merely by passing away physically. He must be scceeded in order for him to be relieved of his position. Simply put, there is always a Rebbe.
b) It is the common belief of all Lubavitchers based on the teachings of the Previous Rebbe, the Rebbe, and various statements of the Rebbe, that there will not be an 8th Rebbe. Therefore, the Rebbe is currently the Lubavitcher Rebbe. [BTW, every Lubavitcher quoted as saying the opposite has admitted to me that they believe the Rebbe IS our Rebbe.]
c) It is the fervent hope of every Chabad Chosid to follow the centuries-old belief that one’s spiritual leader is the Moshiach of the generation–should that generation merit the redemption. Therefore, the Rebbe, as the current Rebbe, is the Moshiach of the generation. [Remember the first rule in Algebra, A=B=C? Well, if A, the Rebbe is B, the current Rebbe, and a current Rebbe is to be considered C, Moshiach, then the Rebbe is Moshiach.
d) The belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach is NOT to the exclusion of all others. [Personal belief: This is hard to say because in a world where few believe in the reality of the concept, we should abstain from statements that weaken our beliefs. However, due to the abundance of attacks, I feel we have to state clearly that if Moshiach be someone other than the Rebbe, we will still be the first to follow.] At the risk of being crass, let me be blunt: the Rebbe is the captain of our baseball team and we will win under his leadership (should a kid ever say in the middle of a game, that we SHOULD win?). It is not our fault that others have decided not to play baseball. If they play and follow their captain, I for one will respect that immensely. Which reminds me of the time that I fecitiously responded to a Litvak, “But don’t you believe that your Rosh Yeshiva is Moshiach?” to which he responded, “Chas V’Shalom!?!”
e) The Rebbe related to us that it is our duty to foster education about Moshiach among all Jews (and in a respectable manner) because we are standing at the doorstep of the redemption. Therefore, once we are taliking about the topic, issues about the Rebbe’s role will come up. (The following is NOT a personal statement) It is the not the Rebbe’s directive that we include in Moshiach and Geulah education that he is Moshiach. However, once asked, let’s be honest. Also, in certain instances, we take the liberty of advancing this belief to those who have earned the right to go further in their practice as a Chosid. Rarely, if ever, does a shliach teach this to a Jew before he puts on Tefilin or lights Shabbos candles.
I would like to conclude this part with a simple problem that my fellow Lubavitchers do not understand about non-Lubavitchers. If there is any problem with our beliefs it is the mistaken threat that it assumes. The Rebbes have taught us that we cannot escape to spirituality by divorcing ourselves from the world. If Moshiach is coming, we don’t stop living life at the same pace any other person is used to, whether it involve commuting, eating, working, etc. In fact, the way to bring Moshiach is to live the life that is expected of us on this planet and infuse that life with Hashem and the Torah. Unfortunately, the common misconception is that Moshiach talk is dangerous escapism. Trust me. The contemplated suicides after Gimmel Tammuz have not happened and will not happen.
So why are there people that Rabbi Shemtov wants to extricate from 770? Whether he is right or wrong, his target is those that have turned all of the basic aforementioned beliefs into a form of totalitarian escapism that is not subject to debate. They throw away any written divrei torah from the rest of us who are “agnostics” about their way of belief. Once they are extricated, Lubavitchers can go back to the age-old communal disputes that we learned to enjoy without danger or threat to life, limb, livelihood, friendships, shidduchim, etc.
And by the way, David Berger is no threat to us because he is doing the same thing that has been done to Chabad Chassidim for years. As someone once told my brother-in-law in Eretz Yisrael, “We (misnagdim) have a mesorah from the Chazon Ish and Reb Aron Kotler that the Lubavitchers should never be at the head! [Yiddish: Lubavitch zol kein mol nisht zein B’rosh!]
Tell that to every Litvak who goes to Chabad in hotzenplotz for a minyan or shabbos meal. They know that Chabad has a leadership role among world Jewry and nothing has happened to Jews as a result. Except for lots of good things. For instance, how many people learn Daf Yomi today because a Lubavitcher introduced them to Yiddishkeit years ago? If only we could work together.
To sum up: We believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach and that is IRRLEVANT as far as any arguments made about Lubavitch. It simply reinforces what we all say daily in Shmoneh Esreih that Moshiach will come and take us out of Golus and Hashem will openly rule. The campaign to centralize the Rebbe’s role as Moshiach in the Rebbe’s campaigns is harmful to the minimum serenity that the Lubavitch community is entitled to. With that in mind, all leaders of other Chabad factions, including Rabbi Shemtov, should be reminded that they should be resolving problems and not replacing them.
Therefore, I believe, the time is now for the 770 Gabboim, the Rabbis of the Crown Heights community, and the leaders of the Rebbe’s organizations to take advantage of this clarification by the secular court to find the maximum amount of common ground and disappoint the radicals who are only interested in continuing division.
March 23rd, 2006 at 7:26 pm
SIW:
1. Shemtov is lying to you. His remark is a paraphrase of what the Rebbe said after his thugs attacked Rabbi Rivkin in the 1970’s. Check the Yiddish Forward’s files. They covered the story.
2. What I wrote about the various groupings within Chabad is accurate.
3. I do not go further than Berger. Berger is inaccurate with regard to the breakdown within Chabad. Worse yet, he’s tone deaf, as well. Berger does a disservice to his cause because of this.
4. Nothing I wrote about the Chabad groupings is controversial.
5. Read the comment form the Chabanik posted above. Do you see any theological ideas expressed there that are foreign to Judaism? If you do not, I suggest you show that entire comment to a competent Orthodox rabbi with no ties to Chabad.
March 23rd, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Shmarya - So, Shemtov believes Schneerson is the messiah? Got proof?
March 23rd, 2006 at 10:08 pm
For a man playing the field in Washington D.C. for the past 30 years plus, Shemtov is the consumate politician and by definition an unembarassed liar (there is more then a little Chabad-Lubavitch folklore to back up that statement).
As a matter of fact it is well known that Shemtov and his cohort Krinsky rarely agree upon anything, other then their vehement and hateful opposition to the so called Messianist (Though Shemtov’s true opposition has nothing to do with Moshiach. Many a time in the past 12 years, he has made publicly speeches that make him sound like a bonafide messianist).
His true opposition is to those who challenge his and Krinsky’s so called leadership position in Chabad.
Well before Gimmel, Shemtov maneuvered himself into position independently of Krinsky and his family, for the coup that they effected after the stroke of Chof Zayin Adar 5752.
Opposition to him and Krinsky started overtly then, when the whole of Lubavitch was saying unanimously “yechi adoneinu moreinu………..”.
As in all politically motivated campaigns: lies, confusion and misrepresentation, fuel the debate. Shemtov and Krinsky have a long history of misrepresenting their opposition’s beleifs, acts and opinion.
There exists a twelve year old trail of representation and misrepresentations, statements and mis-statements by the duo, many times in conflict with one and the other (as they are known to vehemently hate each other). Especially in the records of the Federal court and the New York State Supreme.
If anybody would make a forensic analysis of their statements, they would find a total abuse of facts and authority to further their personal claims to the so called leadership of Chabad-Lubavitch.
It is a well known secret in Chabad, that every vote on behalf of Krinsky and Shemtov is bought and political. Intimidation and character destruction is par for the course. The short memory of most of the media’s subjects, has only helped the confusion and added to their cause.
Had the two of them, together with others within Chabad Lubavitch, collabarated to find an acceptable way of publicizing and marketing the Rebbe’s message of Moshiach and this generation role in advancing and preparing for his revelation and coming (Doing so would have been no less difficult, then introducing the concept of Shlichus throughout the world, and the launching of ten Mitzva campaigns). Instead of spending $10,000,000 to $12,000,000 that they have spent fighting and libeling their opposition, in legal and court fees, during the past 14 years, Chabad Lubavitch would not be divided the way it is.
Additionally, the two of them are single handedly responsible for the breakdown of law and order within the Chabad Lubavitch, as they have never ever responded positively to demands placed upon them to submit to Dinei Tora. They are both responsible for unprecedented breakdown of Chassidic and Jewish values in their own families and within the families of The Chabad Lubavitch community throughout the world.
So, when Shemtov makes a statement that nobody in Lubavitch is Meshichist, what he really means is that nobody in Lubavitch is opposed to him, which was and is a great lie. He is despised no less today then he was twenty years ago, and he no less political today then he was then. For his own expediency and arrogant egotism he has sacrificed the unity and brotherhood of Chabad Lubavitch.
March 24th, 2006 at 12:21 am
While the previous posters make valid points about A Shemtov not being honest about the beliefs of Lubavitchers and Shluchim the words of their detractors on this board are politically motivated. THis goes back to apolitical struggle of has more say about Lubavitch and it’s stance: the Shluchim establishment or Crown Heights. The later despise the Shluchim establishment for the fact that the Rebbe has vested his powers to them. The earlier poster was disingenous to claim that had Rabbi Shemtov found a way to invest money to participate in the moshiachist campaign all would have been well. The meshichist would never found a way to tone down their most important call: to publicize that the Rebbe IS Moshiach and would not miss the golden opportunity to knock dow the Shluchim establishment and to gain power amongst Crown Heights populace.
March 24th, 2006 at 4:58 am
SIW –
The editor of YudelKrinsky.com in part made that site after hearing R. A. Shemtov say the Rebbe was moshiach.
March 24th, 2006 at 9:39 am
Shmarya - The best you’ve got is one guy, the founder of a parody site, having heard Shemtov say once that “the Rebbe was moshiach”? Are we perhaps to take “was” quite literally?
On the other hand, I’ve got him telling me in pretty explicit terms that believing Schneerson is the messiah is beyond the pale.
March 24th, 2006 at 1:28 pm
No you do not. Ask him to say this line FOR ATTRIBUTION:
“The Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, can NOT be the moshiach because he passed away. He is not now nor will he be in the future the moshiach.”
He will not do this.
If he speaks about the future, perhaps the Rebbe will be resurrected as moshiach, etc., ask him clearly: “Is the Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson NOW the moshiach? Is there anything halakhicly wrong in believing the Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson is currently, right now the moshiach?”
As for that “one guy,” he was a top student at the best Chabad yeshivot. Has several smichas. He wrote the parody site to show messianists the stupidity of their reasoning – and to give Yudel Krinsky a slap for tolerating them. He was shocked when Shemtov made messianist statements. Shemtov was the one Chabadnik he was sure was not messianist in any way.
Shemtov said what you wanted to hear in a way that he can easily deny the meaning you ascribe to it. You got him? Go get him. Put him on record just as I wrote above. You do that and Shemtov does not deny the quote or its meaning, then I’ll believe Shemtov is not a messianist. I’ll also be very happy.
March 24th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Oh. And by the way, it wasn’t “was” the moshiach. It was “IS” the moshiach.
March 24th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
Try getting Yudel Krinsky and Rabbis Dovid and J. Immanuel Schochet to make those statements as well. Also Rabbi Moshe Kotlarsky.
March 24th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
All this information about Messianics and groups etc. is very old info (including Shemarya’s quotes from Shluchim) many things have changed since seven and eight years ago. There are numerous publications that constantly and continue to theologically disprove the messianic fringe. They include a booklet published by the chief librarian of Lubavitch Headquarters “Moshiach Ugeulah,� Pardes Chabad and Haoros Ubeurim of Oholei Torah (Which had a few articles on the issue).
Today when you walk in to Oholei Torah (the famous “Messianic school� quoted in Berger’s book, which dwindled partly because of its Messianic views) has practically no one with a Yechi Kipa. And when the Messianics made a gathering on the same night as the non Messianics, on the anniversary of the Rebbe assuming leadership, the Messianics had hardly anyone!
Any information gathered from years back is irrelevant. To Lubavitchers start speaking to your friends again, their views have totally changed. I constantly speak to my friends and their opinions have totally changed over the past seven years (by the way, including mine, which was based on lack of knowledge of the subject, like most Messianics who believe the Rebbe is the Messiah).
I know of an individual that would like to become a shliach in Boston and he is currently not being permitted due to his views. The same is to the removal of a messianic in recent years in Italy.
March 24th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
Gevald,
You are being completely disingenous.
On the contrary: The more times passses the ideology of meshichissm in it’s core becomes more of literal truth: The Rebbe IS Moshiach.
The disimnformation you are trying to disseminate is true with regards to the importance of “spresing” the word. Here time has given them the ability to gatehr the know-how of how not to lose propsective donors or people who would ultimately identify themselves with Lubavitch.
But, with regards to the core issues and ideology: Go to any bochur who thinks about these issues and ask him what is the proper way to beleive. The answer will clearly be: The Rebbe IS Moshiach.
March 24th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Gevald,
To show how you’re disingenous:”… many things have changed since seven and eight years ago. There are numerous publications that constantly and continue to theologically disprove the messianic fringe. They include a booklet published by the chief librarian of Lubavitch Headquarters “Moshiach Ugeulah,â€? Pardes Chabad and Haoros Ubeurim of Oholei Torah (Which had a few articles on the issue)….”.
What a joke: “numerous publications” refers to a series of maybe 7 or 8 booklets that were put out in the year 5757 for a few months only!
Further: If you look at the content of that booklet you’ll see: that a large of that booklet contains the opinion of the mshichisten. You’ll see that besides the chief librarian and one more *no one* who dared counter Meshichisten could have had the courage to put their name! You would have seen that at that time the other “Heoros ubiurim” (the mshichisten’s was formed) and they were in their full force spreading their words with a shturem.
You’ll see in that kuntress: that there are 3 groups in Lubavitch regarding the beleifs of meshichisten: 1) The REbbe IS Moshiach and we shouldqcould spread it. 2) The next is very important: They are “anti’
’s” but exactlhy as portrayed here: They are “atni” spreading this idea, but certainly they clearly claim that they beleive the Rebbe IS Moshiach and that is how a chossid has to believe. 3) Only a tiny tiny minority thinks that maybe the Rebbe is not moshiach (now). You can see taht, as above, that only two or thre or maybe four put down their name, vezehu.
Further: This has been as said, in 5757 . since then it hasn’t improved; pon the contrary the ideological grounds of the movement has solidified.
As you said “walk in to Oholei Torah” and talk to a serious chassidisher bochur today: he will tell you that if you do not beleive the rebbe is moshiach you are not a chossid of the Rebbe (if you are chossid at all). period. This is what the serious bochur will tell you.
Now: There has not been any such kuntress out since 5757! Further: Rabi Chayim Rappaport who challenged Dr. Berger in his main thesis (and said that there is nothing wrong in beleiveing that the REbbe will be the moshiach) has said things that are not in the line of thinking of the MEshichisten and he gotten lots of flack for this.
Two years ago in the beginning of the year 5764 there has been two opposing kuntressim: between the “antimesichisten” and the “meshicghisten”: You would like us to belive that the discussion revolved around whether or not the REbbe IS Moshiach. But no such luck. This has not been even remotely chalenged. The “discussion” revolved around whether or not: THe Rebbe was NISTALEK or not! And there were hundreds of pages “proving” how the REbbe did not pass way. This was from the meshichisten. The “anti’s” have laid down: that Halacha exists and we judge according to what we see.
This is from leading mashpiim and Roshey Yeshiva who are “antis” but they will clearly state that a chossid has to beleive that the Rebbe is moshiach.
ASk the bochur in OT what Reb Yoel (an “anti”) farbrengs. Ask them also about other “anti”s”. In the end of the day: The Rebbe IS Moshiach.
It’s time to be honest and stopped play games from the three sides of the mouth.
March 24th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
“All this information about Messianics and groups etc. is very old info (including Shemarya’s quotes from Shluchim) many things have changed since seven and eight years ago. There are numerous publications that constantly and continue to theologically disprove the messianic fringe. They include a booklet published by the chief librarian of Lubavitch Headquarters “Moshiach Ugeulah,â€? Pardes Chabad and Haoros Ubeurim of Oholei Torah (Which had a few articles on the issue).”
He was a well-known NON-messianist, one of the only 5 or 6 in Chabad of any prominence, from DAY ONE. In other words, you bring as a major source someone who cannot prove your point.
As for the rest of what you write, a “Yechi” kipa means association with OPEN messianism. Not wearing a “Yechi” kipa may mean quiet messianism – or it could mean hiding open messianism in certain locations and times.
The point, as you well know, is that Chabad (with the help of Berger’s error) have cast this as a fight between NON-messianists and messianists – but this is now and always was false. It is a fight between OPEN messianists and QUIET messianists.
The theology Shemtov opposes is OPEN messianism, because he understands open messianism to be against the Rebbe’s directives, which represent the Rebbe’s theology.
March 24th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
To Menachem S.
Thank you for your clarifying remarks! You couldn’t have expressed it any better!
You write:
“Well before Gimmel [Tamuz], Shemtov maneuvered himself into position independently of Krinsky and his family, for the coup that they effected after the stroke of Chof Zayin Adar 5752.
Opposition to him and Krinsky started overtly then, when the whole of Lubavitch was saying unanimously “yechi adoneinu moreinu………..�.
Now for some facts:
You claim that Rabbi Shemtov maneuvered himself into position. Into which position are you referring to? His appointment to the position of Chairman of the Executive Committee of Agudas Chasidei Chabad was by the Rebbe, may his merit shield us, himself. Everyone has seen the Rebbe’s handwritten appointment of Rabbi Avrohom Shemtov to the position of Yoshev Rosh Vaad Hapoel of Agudas Chasidei Chabad.
It was written on a letter submitted by Rabbi Yehudah Krinsky – at the Rebbe’s behest – listing the positions and members of Agu�ch at the time. The Rebbe then proceeded to fill the empty positions (due to those members who had passed away) with names of his choosing.
You called that maneuvering??
The Rebbe then proceeded to call in the members of Aguch to a private audience and spoke to them about their functions, asking that a transcript of that talk be handed into him for editing. He then wanted it publicized. This was done and it is publicly accessible. The Rebbe had asked them to send out a letter to all Shluchim regarding their functions and wanted to see the letter before it was sent out. This was done. The Rebbe approved the letter and it was sent out (together with a copy of the Yechidus) to all Shluchim the world over.
It was clear that the Rebbe was preparing for a post 3-Tamuz situation. The Rebbe clearly trusted this group of Chassidim with defending, defining and guiding Lubavitch Chassidim after he would physically not be here to do so.
What did this group of ‘maneuverers’ do? They cried. They understood what the Rebbe was telling them and didn’t want to accept it.
Had they been ‘maneuvering’, they would have taken their mandate and ran with it. They would have made sure that everyone knew, provoke opposition and have the Rebbe publicly show support to the idea that they were the new ‘bosses’.
They did not do anything in that direction at all. They were ‘forced’ by the Rebbe to do whatever they did do. (Publicizing the Yechidus and sending the letter).
That is as far as Rabbi Shemtov’s ‘maneuvering’ is concerned.
There is however a more important point that you make and that is regarding the true fervor behind the Yechi declaration.
You say “Opposition to him and Krinsky started overtly then, when the whole of Lubavitch was saying unanimously “yechi adoneinu moreinu………..�
You couldn’t have said it better. Thank you so much.
Had “Yechi� been a wish and desire that the Rebbe continue to lead us, I highly doubt that any of this controversy would ever flourish or that any hate would be generated. You explained very well, however, why there is so much hate and controversy. “Yechi� was basically a Declaration of Independence of the authority respresented by Rabbis Shemtov and Krinsky, Aguch and Merkos.
It would be hard for anyone to believe this theory from someone who supports Shemtov/Krinsky, but coming from and ardent Shemtov/Krinsky hater such as you have manifested yourself to be, I can rest assured that this theory has been proven true.
March 24th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
In addition:
Anyone can go in any of the websites (crownheights.info and othrs) and see whenever there is a discussion about these issue (rebbe = moshich) you will (almost) never find the position that maybe the rebbe is not moshiach. There is now an ongoing discussion about the same issue discussed here and you can see from the responses and comments how REbbe = moshiach is the only vocal doctrine in CH and the anti’s agree with it mostly (they only differ on the tatics).
March 25th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Sorry that I do not look at the site every 10 ten minutes to be able to respond to the dubious claims.
To make a point: In Chabad today, it is a non-issue if the Rebbe is Moshiach or not. No one speaks about it! Shmarya speaks about it more than my friends. All the sites mentioned above do not speak about Moshiach never mind about the Rebbe being Moshiach.
Please see the last eight issues of Pardes Chabad. Also forgot to mention a session at the Kinus that past with no problem that bashed the Rebbe being Moshiach from two years ago (especially by Chaim Rapaport). The only person I heard comments from was some loner who lives on Union street.
To Shmary: Meilach (yudelkrinsky.com was never a top bochur in any yeshivah. Hate to break the news to you, but one who gets semicha in various yeshivos does not make you top in Chabad. Anyone who knows him laughed at your ludicrous quote.
In any case you are one of those people that makes generalizations on many from one story (see Rosen).
Wrong about the Yechi Kipas… The ones who wear them, also do not go around announcing who the Moshiach is. There is actually almost no Chabadnik today that says who he is to anyone and they still wear the yechi kipah.
Todros and the others that are messianics who are writing in these comments and who would like to paint the entire chabad at that, you will not be successful. The facts will speak for themselves.
March 25th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
He was a top student in at leat two Chabad yeshivot he attended. Heard it from roshei yeshivot, and saw it personally.
The rest of what you write is comical. SIW can prove this by putting Shemtov on the spot, as I suggested above.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:00 am
Well, my dear friends, I have had a good time reading your opinions and views.
Firstly I think it is important to stress that each one of you (including myself), are presenting your personal views and outlook. And based on the way that you conceive and imagine everyone else to believe and think.
- Maybe you are right, but, maybe you are wrong.
Secondly, I am not sure where any of you receive and get your information from, again:
- Maybe you are right, but, maybe you are wrong.
Thirdly, one thing for sure, I am a Lubavitcher and I have studied in Lubavitch Yeshivas all my life, and I currently live in Crown Heights, and daven in 770 daily.
This is an undisputable fact: A majority of Lubavitchers do not discuss: Is, If, Can, Will, When, How….. The Rebbe - Moshiach. We just don’t, we have moved on, and we are more concerned about building stronger and larger Chabad communities with Shluchim and Chabad houses around the world, doing the Rebbe’s directive of spreading Torah and Mitzvos all around the globe. And we all have negative feelings towards the few ‘mishechistim’, (who believe they direct where and when the Rabbe comes and goes…)
- Maybe we are right, but, maybe we are wrong, (this is just the way we are at the moment.)
Finally, Some of those writing the above comments, are really not in touch with what is going on in Lubavitch. It would be similar to me, presenting and sharing my opinion on satmars; or any other sect, on whom the only information I have is scarce.
- Definitely wrong.
Others have their own personal political agenda, so it is hard to judge, as it is on any open forum. It would be similar to me, discussing and arguing for the right in Israel, vs. the left.
– Always must be right. �
We all want peace harmony, and Moshiach to come right now!
- For sure right, (I hope!)
March 26th, 2006 at 12:12 am
Gevald,
hack nisht kayn tchaynik! Look at the kuntres you mentioned that was issued 9 years ago and see that most writers believe the REbbe IS moshiach. Go to Crownheights.info today and you’ll see most comments and you’ll see the same even stronger. And anybody who talks with the chassidishe bochurim knows that the simple fact that there is “no hava amina that the rebbe is not moshiach” and otherwise he is not a chossid. “you can fool sometimes….but not all people all times”.
March 26th, 2006 at 10:50 am
if shemtov does what he says he want’s to do it will be “geshmak”
March 26th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Thumbs up to Mendel O, D, A, Hant. %100 correct!
March 26th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
And… Todros you keep on dodging gevald’s points… pretty shevach…
March 27th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
“The Rebbe clearly trusted this group of Chassidim with defending, defining and guiding Lubavitch Chassidim after he would physically not be here to do so.”
That’s cute.
And where exactly does it say it “that letter” that Rabbi Shemtov is responsible to “define” what Chabad is and “guide” Lubavitch after Gimmel Tamuz?
I am familiar with the letter and it says nothing AT ALL to that effect.
One finds it humorous and ludicrous that despite dozens of volumes of Sichos, Igros etc. such an important and crucial piece of information for the future of Chabad (as you would like us to believe) was supposedly relegated by the Rebbe in an unknown and clandestine manuscript.
Don’t you think that the Rebbe would have mentioned something in public about his appointment of a board “Chassidim with defending, defining and guiding Lubavitch Chassidim after he would physically not be here to do so.” ?
He did say something about the Rabbonim of every kehila to be something of that “board�. (That we failed him unfortunately so far in that aspect – is another topic.)
Aguc�h is at best a non binding advisory board that is also responsible to shovel the snow in front of 770.
Imagine after the passing of Moshe Rabeinu, the writing of the Torah, Written and Oral, some smart aleck pops up and says that I have a handwritten note from Moshe Rabeinu that G-D has told him that we need to eat falafel every Wednesday…..
Wake up and think straight.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:26 pm
Milan you just new to Chabad… This is known information… Everyone who was around in those years knows about the Sicha and letters.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
Momo -
Actually- I not just new to Chabad….. I’m an oldie…
Sicha? When exactly? Where can one see it? Likutei Sichos? Hanochos?
Letters? Which one exactly? Where can one see it? Igros?
Remember: We are looking for a clear directive from the Rebbe to us as Chasidim that (in your words):
“The Rebbe clearly trusted this group of Chassidim with defending, defining and guiding Lubavitch Chassidim after he would physically not be here to do so.”
If it would be as simple as you claim it to be our problems would be solved. Obviously, it is not.
The letter(s) and sicha make no mention of leadership at all. Advisory at best.
Whereas the sicha, (yes in Hanochos) as what to do in a post Gimel Tamuz (Individual kehila Rabbonim) is much closer to:
“”The Rebbe clearly trusted these groups of Chasidishe Rabbonim with defending, defining and guiding Lubavitch Chassidim after he would physically not be here to do so.”
Incidentally- - the historical opposition of the Rebbe Rashab to the formation of the Aguda was precisely because of the unacceptable premise that ba’le batim (as opposed to Rabbonim or Ge’dolim) should become the Jewish leaders.
March 28th, 2006 at 2:30 am
Steven, I admire your patience and ahavat yisroel? displayed in putting up with this drivel.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
I purposely posted at the beginning to get the ball rolling. Unfortunately, the ball has been dropped. If your cull through the thread, see Shmarya and my postings coaching SIW on how to approach R’Shemtov and put some closure on this issue. SIW should ask him if the majority of Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe may be resurrected in due time and then fulfill the messianic prophecies. Ask him if he believes this. If Shemtov answers (party line) that this is within the bounds of normal Torah Judaism throw at him R’ Schochet’ reportage that R. Aaron Soloveichik regarded the attribution of messiahship to the deceased Rebbe as a shtut (folly). Thus the majority of Lubies are either fools or HaRav Soloveichik, zt’l was wrong.
March 29th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
R’ Shemtov says that no one has ever met an authorized Shaliach who is an open M. I am a BT and I moved into my community in one of the boroughs of NYC (not Brooklyn) a couple years ago right before Rosh HaShanah. The first place I went to was the Chabad House. The Rav wears a yechi yarmulka. I live in a cummunity with a couple dozen shuls, a few yeshivos and many learned people. It’s a chashuv community and yet a Chabad rabbi with a yechi kippa is the shaliach here. I looked him up on chabad.org and he is there–fully authorized. Me and almost every other American BT that I know who went there hoping to find a place for themselves ended up leaving. Now I daven at the Young Israel. It’s nice, but it doesn’t have the spirituality that I am looking for but am prevented from getting, except if I chose to learn by myself. Unfortunately, I am not motivated to learn Chassidus simply because of what’s going on in Chabad with the “Moshiach issue”.
Mr. Weiss, for my sake, can you please ask R. Shemtov the exact specifications of the type of messianism he wants to remove from Lubavitch and whether he believes it’s impossible, unlikely or likely that the Rebbe could eventually be resurrected to become Moshiach. I want to ask him myself. I looked up his phone number on chabad.org and called but it just rings. There’s no answering machine and nobody picked up.
March 30th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
About 6 weeks ago, I made a trip to Crown Heights in order to see things for myself. I paid a visit to Yeshiva Oholei Torah for the first time in my life. I walked many flights up to the main beis medrash. I didn’t see any yechi kippas but I did see one sign right right there in the beis medrash. The sign is between 4-5 feet long and about 1 foot high with a white background a red letters. It is on the wall directly above one of the book cases. It is a yechi sign, smaller but with the same words as the ones in 770. It is right in the beis medrash of Oholei Torah. This was only 6 weeks ago. If R. Shemtov gets the signs in 770 removed will he also try to do the same in Oholei Torah?
March 30th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Momo-
So where is the letter?
It’s crucial that simple Chabadniks like me see it.
March 30th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
Baab,
You are doing the right thing by staying away from Lubavitch. It is very sad and for BT’s (I am a BT) very troubling. For me it is a tragidy as I was mcarved by Chabad. It is not amazing that 20 years later I cannot eat at the house of the Rabbi who brought me back? I still feel a great debt to the Rebbe of Blessed Memory and Chabad for what happened to me. But that cannot blind me to the truth.
My humble guess is that the Rebbe was ‘too fast for the room’, he was miles ahead of the Chassidim and that the generation post-war was weak and not grounded enough to receive the Rebbe’s teachings. Thus a messianic cult arose and a great chillul Hashem was made.
So keep learning Torah and thank G-d you are not among the evil doers.
March 30th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
Been There,
It’s a tragedy for me too.
Thanks for your advice and chizuk.
April 6th, 2006 at 12:37 am
With all due respect to the above comments, to Baab and Been There, I must say that the Moshiach argument has almost totally died out. Yes, there are signs here and there, and yes, there’s your lunatic screaming and waving the flag, but what it boils down to is that lunatics stick out and the normal ones aren’t looked at. I would read Mayer’s comments above, they are very insightful, it may take a while to read, but it’s definitely worth it.
The meshichist (i.e. the one who believes the Rebbe never passed away physically) is a lunatic, but you who can’t tolerate him are even more of a lunatic, for what the heck do you care what he has to say, let him say what he wants, why does it bug you? Chillul hashem for who? you? get over it! grow up a little, move on in life, there are many more important things than this issue. In fact it’s probably all the arguing that has kept Moshiach, whoever he may be, from coming!!!
April 6th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Avroham Shemtov cares only for his own power. Which is why his youngest sons are no longer frum.
April 15th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
And what is your reason?
April 15th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
Dear Milan,
You ask:
‘And where exactly does it say in “that letterâ€? that Rabbi Shemtov is responsible to “defineâ€? what Chabad is and “guideâ€? Lubavitch after Gimmel Tamuz?’
Here is MY rudimentary translation of the (edited by the Rebbe) yechidus that Aguch had with the Rebbe, (requested by the Rebbe) that took place on Marcheshvan 9, 5749. You can draw your own conclusions regarding what the Rebbe wanted from Aguch:
“This year, for the month of Tishrei, there were representatives here from more places than ever. I had great pleasure to see that the ‘kids have become rams’ and that the Shluchim are already making new shluchim. I had pleasure from their development and from the fact that they have already grown up and are worthy to be helped and encouraged even more than until now. There should be a committee here that they should be able to turn to for advice, including representatives from here, and they should be notified of whatever they need to be notified and if necessary give advice as to how to expand the work even more than until now.
“The committee should be something permanent, with whom they can constantly be in contact.
“It should be comprised of those that are here now and more members should be added, perhaps those that have more free time and maybe younger ones that will be able to travel.
“A notice should immediately go out notifying whom they can consult.
“Especially now – for example regarding the elections in the Holy Land. Until now Chabad did not get envolved, and now, due to several reasons, a position has been taken. This demands clarification here and there. There should be several people, and they can be changed from time to time, and divide the functions amongst themselves. Those that are present are all included in this. As I mentioned before, more members may be added, and if they will add more members, may they be blessed, and one can hope that this will bring even greater success than there has been until now.
“Today there are even more opportunities to do and to accomplish. As mentioned before, this should be done by Agudas Chabad. Functions should be divided and more members added.
“There are those in certain places that have already grown up and they can no longer be given orders as was the system until now that they would report and orders were given from here. Due to their great success, and their knowing locally what the situation is and what is needed, they have already grown up and one can rely on them. The time has come, in my opinion, that in addition to those present members should be added from Eretz Yisroel, California and other countries where there are widespread activities. When necessary they can be contacted by phone, as it would then be considered as if they were here.
“I especially hurried in order to convene this meeting right after the guests have left yesterday and the day before, while it is still warm. And if more members were to be added from Eretz Yisroel, California and other countries, I will be pleased. As long at it is still warm, you should discuss amongst yourself regarding a continuation.
“It is advisable that already today you should write up a letter to everyone, a general letter, that these matters should be continued.
“Probably a meeting will be organized right away today and especially about adding members who are not present here physically, with analysis and resolutions that will add to the success of the work. The letter should be sent out to them close to their having been here and indicate the address here where they can correspond to.
“And if there are suggestions from those that live out of town, they should be suggested.
“I have already brought attention to the fact that the corporate papers of the institutions should be in order and done through a good lawyer.
“The institutions Merkos Leinyonei Chinuch, Machne Israel, Agudas Chabad, Igud Hashluchim, etc., as well as the institutions everywhere need to have the proper legal papers (for tax exemption, etc)…
“Another important matter: we are going to build a new central building. A foundation stone has already been set (with Mr. Chase etc.). A new central building will be built with offices for Merkos, Machne, Agudas Chabad, etc. The building should be expedited, and it should all be done legally.
“Similarly regarding Eretz Yisroel: We have to deal there with Hareidim and secular, therefore it should be seen to it that everything there should also have the “legal statusâ€? similar to the one here. Also a new central building will be built in Eretz Yisroel, probably in Kfar Chabad; the necessary things have to be prepared and people appointed. You should write to them saying that they should make suggestions in these matters and they will then also be studied here, to notify them of this meeting that came from my initiative, because if not I don’t know when it will happen. With G-d’s help everything will go smoothly and confusion will be prevented. The letter should be written and contact should be kept up throughout the whole year. It is advisable that copies of the legal papers of the institutions should be sent here. And contact will be maintained.
“Also, and this also a main point: It should be officially ‘registered’ here that so-and-so is the one responsible in such and such a city or country.
“It is not of paramount importance that everything be decided today, but there should not be an interruption.
“Those that already have legal papers should verify that no changes need to be made, and it should be attended to immediately. And it does not matter if those that do not yet have their papers will take another few days or weeks to get them in order, but the general uniting letter should go out at once, while it is still warm.
“As mentioned, all those present should be part of it, and if more members are added, the better. It should done by a lawyer, and the earlier the better. Whoever rushes in this matter is praiseworthy and it should be with great success.
“One must conclude on a positive note – as I mentioned before, I had pleasure to see the extent of growth and how much they (the askanim) can be relied on and how much they have already done and accomplished.
“As mentioned before, the main thing is to have the legal papers in order, etc. This is important because of the different complaints that may arise. When people will know that it is an official institution and registered in Washington etc., they will desist from starting up.
“A secretary should be chosen who should write. And if more than one will write, I will be happy.
“It seems that my father-in-law is working in a very expansive way and that is the source for such great success.
“We should hear good news; the more and the sooner the better.”
May 11th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
I asked: And where exactly does it say it “that letter� that Rabbi Shemtov is responsible to “define� what Chabad is and “guide� Lubavitch after Gimmel Tamuz?
You quote: “That there should be a committee here that they should be able to turn to for advice.”
1- How do you get from an “advisory committeeâ€? to a person who is responsible to “defineâ€? “defendâ€? what Chabad is and “guideâ€? Lubavitch after Gimmel Tamuz?
2- Assuming that you have another letter somewhere (that does give them that “power”) - how does one stretch that to all of Anash?
3- Why is it that only a few cohorts and lackeys interpret the meaning of that Yechidus the way you see it?
4- It says that the places of successes can make their own decisions and do not need to take orders from the Rebbe. “Due to their great success, and their knowing locally what the situation is and what is needed, they have already grown up and one can rely on them.� Decisions should be made locally, not by some committee.
My conclusion is that the Rebbe wanted (as he states explicitly as per your translation) an advisory board for shluchim.
It’s ironic that whereas the central point of what he said was to totally decentralize the decision making – but indeed creating a central and international advisory committee –
the committee members construed his words to mean the total opposite. Total control by Aguch.
I suggest you read this book:
...
May 14th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
We can argue about the exact wording, translation and implications in the yechidus, if you’d like.
Before doing so, maybe it would be worthwhile to post the letter that Aguch sent as a result of the yechidus:
The letter was seen by the Rebbe (as per the Rebbe’s request) and approved of before being sent out.
Following is a free translation of the personalized letter sent out to shluchim and heads of Lubavitch mosdos in the world (under whose authority all chassidim are expected to behave). It was sent out on the stationery of Agudas Chassidei Chabad - Lubavitch, Lubavitch World Headquarters.
BH
9 Marcheshvan 5,749
Brooklyn NY
To the honorable…
Peace and blessing!
We, the members of the Agudas Chasidei Chabad - World Headquarters, merited today to be called into the Holy Chamber and hear from the Rebbe, Shlita, about the satisfaction and pleasure that he derived from the guests-representatives that were here during the Seventh Month, from their obviously great success regarding themselves as well as their activities that have grown and expanded with the help of G-d, and at the same time we also received a practical instruction.
We were ordered to contact those that were here and to notify them that their being here and visiting here should continue on throughout the year by cooperating with the board of Agudas Chasidei Chabad, and the board will be available to receive reports and suggestions from you as well as to transmit to you from here any information that may be pertinent to you. In addition to that an effort will be made to offer necessary assistance and support for your success, as well as an effort to respond to what is needed in as timely a fashion as possible.
The Rebbe, Shlita, also expressed his holy view that the opportunities to accomplish are expanding now more than ever, and we must work accordingly and ready ourselves to receive the great successes.
We are therefore hurrying to transmit to you the good news together with the Rebbe shlita’s holy blessings for outstanding success to all those that pertain; that with cooperation and a strong relationship the activities will grow and expand both quantitatively as well as qualitatively in an ever increasing manner, with G-d’s help.
We will be in contact regarding more details, in the meantime we ask that you acknowledge receipt of this letter, to the address that appears above.
With respect and blessings for success in all the aforementioned,
The Board of Agudas Chassidei Chabad - World Headquarters.
End of letter
Now, please tell me honestly, if the second paragraph (’We were ordered…’) does not imply quite clearly that the Rebbe wanted Aguch to oversee and guide Lubavitch policy.
June 12th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Sorry.
Firstly, I don’t see what you do. The letter has no mention of authority to Aguch.
Secondly, think - would this letter, without any verification be held up in any court? In a Bais Din? After all we all heard from the Rebbe himself not to believe even his secretariat?
(Yes your honor, I am a member of Aguch and I am telling you that that is what he meant. Believe me….)
On a crucial thing like this would the Rebbe rely on heresy?
Thirdly - assuming that I have an agenda - there are many many shluchim/Anash who are of the opinion that all Aguch was appointed to, is at best, an advisory committee.
Are we all heretics?
Fourthly- most proponents of your way of thinking are either employed or related to the upper hierarchy of Aguch. That doesn’t add much to power to your logic.
April 30th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
Haha you guys are such loosers….it’s been almost a year and yechi still stands in 770 and Ohley Torah. Get over yourselves and embrace the Rebbe’s prophecy…”Moshiach is coming in this generation.” Stop fighting and let’s start rebuilding!! To the BT who don’t go to the Yechi shluchim or don’t eat at their Rabbi’s table you’re missing out and are ungreatful….at best Seriously get over yourselves!!!
June 29th, 2007 at 1:27 am
It is very sad to see that while many young boys are abandoning yidishkeit people have time to argue about Messianidc issues which do not bring our children any closer to Juaism ,on the contrary.We should instead focus and direct our energies on giving our our children a positive feeling towards Tora and Mitzvos including the belief that Moshiach can come any moment especially through Ahavas Isroel(chinom)and learning about it as the Rebbe directed us to do.