R’ David Bendory on Kosher Supervisors
I came across the Website of this fellow who does courses in keeping a kosher kitchen and maintains a number of Webpages on the topic, including this “List of Valid Hechshers” that notably has the following after that list:
# The “Half-moon K” or “Fat-K” (which is not listed above) has been improving of late and is no longer rejected outright; however, each individual certified product must be individually researched.
The “Triangle-K” (also not listed) is not a reliable hechsher. Rabbi Ralbag, the Rav HaMachshir, is by all accounts a yoreh shamayim. As I understand it, the issue with Triangle-K is that the hechsher is on far too many products for one person to supervise effectively.
It’s hard to find someone who’ll be so upfront about the whats and wherefores of a supervision agency being considered unreliable, so to see this explained so frankly and openly about the Triangle-K is a surprise, especially because the claim being made seems pretty much impossible to back up. Indeed, when I told Ralbag in our interview that a reason his certification was considered unreliable was owing to his being an individual, not an organization, his response was to list the numerous supervisors he maintains around the world.
So how does Bendory justify this statement?
I sent him a few questions, the biggest of which focused on his take on the Triangle-K.
I’m doing some reporting on kosher supervision, and came across your Website.
I noticed your claim regarding the Triangle-K that “the hechsher is on far too many products for one person to supervise effectively.” Where did you get this information, and how do you know that Triangle-K does not maintain more than one employee? Further, if R’ Ralbag is “a yoreh shamayim,” why would he be certifying and eating products that are not considered reliable?
His response, ultimately, was “Sorry, I don’t respond to media inquiries of this nature.”
So I just called him to follow-up. I first asked him to explain what the nature of the inquiry was such that he won’t respond, to which he replied “In general, kashrut is not something that I’m willing to be interviewed on for newspaper purposes,” because, he asserted, “Most articles that show up about kashrut are not positive.” That’s news to me, because virtually every story I’ve seen has been profoundly fawning. I asked him for some examples of such, and he would provide none.
So then I moved into the heart of the matter: does he think that the Triangle-K does not have any employees? He said of his Website claim “That’s all I have to say about the matter” and that he would not be providing any additional information.
But does he think Ralbag doesn’t have any employees? “I never said he doesn’t have any employees.” But do you think he doesn’t have any additional supervisors? He wouldn’t say. But why are you willing to smear a man by saying his supervision isn’t reliable without backing it up? How can you square your saying he’s a yoreh shamayim with the claim that he’d be eating food from his own supervision that you say he isn’t doing effectively? “I don’t say anything about him that he does not supervise effectively.” But how can you square that with the fact that you claim his supervision’s unreliable? Have you called Ralbag to ask if your impression is correct, while you publish that impression on your Website?
He basically wasn’t answering and eventually hung up.
As a journalist examining this kosher supervision world of rumor, innuendo, and a broad range of unattributed claims, I’m more than a bit surprised by conduct like this. I check out what I plan to write before I put it in the public sphere; why does it seem that’s not the same standard held by many of the rabbis involved?
UPDATE: As Shmarya notes in the comments, Bendory has removed the above statement. A change of heart? It’s hard to say: he removed all claims about “unreliable” supervisions, not simply those regarding the Triangle-K.
December 6th, 2005 at 1:37 pm
This guy is a nobody. He took the info. on his website from other places. but he should be sued for libel by Ralbag.
December 6th, 2005 at 3:20 pm
It’s too bad people are more concerned with what goes in their mouths than what comes out of their mouths.
As I’ve said before, a statement like “…the hechsher is on far too many products for one person to supervise effectively.” is a meaningless statement and a complete smear. This is in fact one of the most common smears used in the Kashrut industry.
A smear like this is a clear violation of the laws of shmirat haloshon and I suspect it would likely constitue libel. Most Kashrut entities and people in the industry are far too clever to ever put such smears in print. They use phrases like “We do not recognize X.” or “We do not consider X reliable.”
“…the hechsher is on far too many products for one person to supervise effectively.” Such claims/smears are whispered not published.
December 6th, 2005 at 3:23 pm
in fact, contrary to ralbags statements to canonist, his hechsher is not received well in rw orthodox circles.
the question, then, is, why?
can canonist get to the bottom of this?
December 6th, 2005 at 3:49 pm
>in fact, contrary to ralbags statements to canonist, his
>hechsher is not received well in rw orthodox circles.
>
>the question, then, is, why?
>
>can canonist get to the bottom of this?
Are you saying SIW should investigate Triangle K or are you saying SIW should investigate unnamed rw orthodox circles?
So far no one has offered any proof or even an allegation with some substance that Triangle K has done anything wrong. The only allegations up to this point have proven to be utterly false.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:37 pm
People have been questioning the Ralbag father and son hashgachah for 40+ years. It was commonly called a “phoney” hashgachah in our circles in NYC when I was growing up. As I recall it was deemed such partly because generic Ralbag labels were affixed - slapped on - to many many food items for Passover.
Aside from these fuzzy recollections, I have no factual information to add. I would suggest to Ralbag Jr that he not be vague about his mashgichim. He said in your interview, “rabbinim who go out every month…supervisions all over Europe…mars, kol dor, tobleron…I have mashgichim the whole time…we hire a rov who goes visiting to all the companies…”
“Rabbanim, a Rov and Mashgichim” all have names and credentials. If these people exist and they have valid credentials, then it would behoove Ralbag to let us know who they are. Indeed I am surprised at Canonist for not probing further here. I little drop of investigative journalism would not hurt anyone - if Ralbag is as solid and sincere as he claims.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:40 pm
Bendory recently got his semicha online from Shema Yisrael. The program is very good but **some** of the students are weak. Bendory is a fool. He’s just parroting the line of the big kashrut agencies. (Sucking up to power.)
Again, SIW, follow the money. Why should the OU’s books be closed? The OK’s? What are they hiding? See those books and you’ll know.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:47 pm
Bendory has removed the Tri-K reference from his website. Here’s the Google cached version:
link
December 6th, 2005 at 9:48 pm
Let’s try that again. Here’s the Google cached version.
December 7th, 2005 at 8:55 am
shmarya (as usual) says that this is all a money thing….
now come, let us reason together: we have the OU, the OK, the Kaf K, the Star K as the biggies. Then there are a myriad of small organizations. I have been a sometime employee of the OU for a long time. As is well known, the OU has a pretty decent system for tracking ingredients that has been refined over time. The list of approved ingredients includes stuff from all of the above-mentioned organizations, plus tons and tons of smaller ones…the OU has NEVER asked me to inform the companies they certify that only OU products can be used…and in fact, there is great interoperability among all kosher organizations. If the Triangle K is not used by any of the national orgs, then logic would dictate that something other than finance is involved. SIW would be doing a genuine service in finding out what those things are…I would suggest asking questions like: do mashgichim ever visit this plant? If so, how often? and so forth…a far tougher interview of Rabbi Ralbag would be nice
December 8th, 2005 at 12:38 am
Perhaps one national agency refuses to use Tri-K because of a past feud, and the others won’t use Tri-K ingredients because they want their hechshered products to be acceptible to all of the big national kashrut agencies.
There was a similar issue in Israelinvolving Rabbi Charlap’s supervision. It was resolved about 12 years ago. The problem there was the idea that the father was “in over his head.” The son, however, was a “Chevramon,” and his hechsher was good. Even so, Chabad and a few other kehillot rejected Charlop’s food for many years after the “problem” was resolved. Why?
As always, follow the money.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:21 am
This Bendory thing is such a typical smear, no substance when put in the corner by s.i.w.
I dont think R’ Ralbag has to answer to anyone, especially now that we see the substance of these smears,
December 8th, 2005 at 2:04 am
First we were told its the tri-k oil ,then rumors of rabbit eyes and carmine…. end of the day all these rumors found to be outright LIES,
so now its a new one, “not enough mashgichim”
this seems to be getting a desperate type of thing to back up some claim, and bendory who seems so sure to posts something on his website, and running to remove it after being confronted, what a fool, he should be ashamed of himself calling himself rabbi ,(well what do you expect from an internet semicha). I mean a reporter has to tell him its an aveirah to slander, pathetic. well at least we get to see what these” rabbis” are all about.
now lets get to substance, “not enough masgichim for so many products”
a] is it by chance that you want to supervise some of these product$ so it should not be so many?
b] r’ ralbag clearly stated in his interview some products have masgichim temidim because the halacha requires that like cheese and wine, and others have yotzeh venichnas because the halacha suffices that. now is it once a month or six times a year, that’s up to the rav hamachshir to decide how many times a year each product needs.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:48 am
The smicha program Bendory did is good – in many ways it is better than standard hasidish smicha.
But Bendory himself is as fallible as the system he represents. Bendory did not invent the smears against Tri-K; he was just naive enough to print what his rabbonim told him.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:53 am
At one point some of the big national kashrut agencies were encouraging their mashgichim to take the Shema Yisrael smicha program and may even have arranged for group registration. Something to consider as you pursue this angle.
December 8th, 2005 at 10:22 am
shmarya says that “maybe” past “feud” stops one org from using the triangle, and so all of them don’t….now, for ex, the OU and StarK pretty much hate each other ….sadly….yet they use each others products everywhere…all of the conspiracy theorists that post their hateful comments to this board have to get a grip…there are real difficulties with the triangle, difficulties that have been observed for the most part in the field at the factory level…let SIW get going, contact some of the well known field guys from the major orgs that do the actual work and let him report what they tell him…then we’ll know, and can stop speculating
December 8th, 2005 at 11:57 am
Triangle K update- according to the latest from my rabbi, mott’s Apple juice is good, but not Ocean Spray Cranberry juice. He also allows eating Star K -supervised Dole romaine lettuce, which Rabbi Belsky does not.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:46 pm
So far no one has offered any proof or even an allegation with some substance that Triangle K has done anything wrong. The only allegations up to this point have proven to be utterly false.
It seems this needs repeating.
...
Again, what you’re saying is meaningless without a proper example.
The proper questions:
1) Does the product need a mashgiach tmidi?
2) If not, how frequently is a mashgiach needed for inspection?
I would note that in England, the London Beth Din ( … ) puts out a kashrut guide that lists products that are kosher supervised and kosher UNSUPERVISED. My understanding is that what you say is “almost never sufficient from a kashrus standpointâ€? is for many industrial produced products “more than sufficient from a kashrus standpointâ€?
>Call and ask him if and when they visit the vegatable
>and fruit canning facilities in Guam?
1) Does it even need to be supervised?
2) How many times does he visit it?
3) How many times do you think he needs to visit it?
4) Give me examples of similar plants under other kashrut bodies and the number of times they visit.
5) Why is 3 or 4 better than 2?
>Also, you don’t seem to comment on why they wouldnt
>have a Mashgiach supervise a Kashering.
You have to be more specific.
1) What product are you talking about?
2) What type of “kashering� is done and why?
3) Give me examples of similar plants with similar products under other kashrut bodies and the procedures they have for similar “kashering�.
4) Why is 3 better than 2?
>Ask why they do not require companies to put their Tri-K
>logo on many of their certified products, although many
>more do now. They claim it is ‘just in case’ the product
>doesn’t stay Kosher, and they can’t possibly control what
>the company does.
The Beth Din of London is similar. You need to consult a list instead of looking for symbols on products.
>Haven’t they heard of a contract?
>That would help, yes, I know that nothing perfect, maintain
>control over the products they certify.
They have contracts.
>It works well for the Star-K, Kof-K, and OU (I believe
>the OK doesn’t use contracts seither, but does
>threaten to sue any company against using pacakging
>with its symbol if they are out of step.)
I’m sure OK has contracts just as the Beth Din of London has.
>So yes, JWB, I do have very good information on how
>they run their business and they systems they employ.
So far that claim is undemonstrated.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:09 pm
Jothar the hillpeople
I must commend you for being honest and following up on your report of motts, that it is indeed good.
But this is precisely the point: on your post dated 11 20 05 10:33pm on the blog board named “the power of myth and suggestion in kosher - nov 18″ you state that this rabbi said motts is no good, it has clamato on same line, in the follow up posts it was pointed out that it might be so, but they kasher in between drinks like all juice plants do between runs, including tropicana and snapple, who also have some type of non kosher drinks in facility.
So now your rabbi says it is indeed good , but ocean spray is not……
can’t you see how vague and kind of desperate these statements are, as if there has to be something “treif” in tri k, after all its tri-k.
As for ocean spray i remember reading on one of these posts or interviews, that trik clearly does not supervise all the ocean spray drinks (due to grape juice or carmine) but they make sure to have a kashering system in place before kosher run ocean spray drinks.
So soon the rabbi will change his mind and say ok ocean spray is good too, but…. is not
following the boards it seems clear that all these rumors are being disproved , contradicted and dropping like dead flies,
if there is real substance like tri-k on carmine or non kosher grape juice or cheese, real substance lets investigate, but just no good - not enough mashgicim - dont like the look of a triangle - or stupidities like that are just getting pathetic,
s.i.w do to your great reporting this is being discovered !
what do they say, great lies sometimes last centuries but then disproven, look at communism
December 8th, 2005 at 2:49 pm
My rabbi’s report has nothing to do with any discussions going on here, with all due respect to SIW and everyone else, he has better things to do than read blogs, eg maaros, discussions with other poskim, etc. There is no cause-and-effect about the change.
After the last round, I asked a bunch of people in the know point-blank, what’s wrong with Triangle K. I ticked off a bunch of them too, dredging up old issues, but “lilmod ani tzorich”. The consensus is that while Rabbi Ralbag is a good man, his supervision leaves much to be desired. No conspiracy theory here- sorry Shmarya and JWB. Somebody claimed that Reb Moshe Feinstein TZ”L ate Triangle K. So if this is true, why not get a Reb Moshe relative or student to come out publicly for Triangle K and end the debate? Offer one of them a nice Hebrew National hot dog and photograph them eating it, end the debate, and expose this conspiracy you claim exists to badmouth Rabbi Ralbag. Until this happens, Occam’s razor says that Triangle K is indeed an unreliable hashgacha like everyone I asked claims. Sorry for being so brutally honest, but that’s the way it is. If it makes you feel better I’ll go buy some Mott’s apple juice.
Triangle K is old news. Where’s the open and honest discussion on the current kashrus issue du jour- the argument between the OU and the Star K on how to make bug-free lettuce, the OU’s lettuce ban on Star K’s Fresh Express and Dole products, Star K’s insistence that Dole is fine, etc? Star K has been usually viewed as good but controversial- witness the Zalman’s meat fiasco from last year. This is worth talking about.
Also worth talking about- someone’s claim on Oprah that Jews were sacrificing babies.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:55 pm
>his supervision leaves much to be desired.
Pure mozi shem rah without and factual basis..
>Where’s the open and honest discussion on the current
>kashrus issue du jour- the argument between the OU
>and the Star K on how to make bug-free lettuce, the
>OU’s lettuce ban on Star K’s Fresh Express and Dole
>products, Star K’s insistence that Dole is fine, etc?
>Star K has been usually viewed as good but
>controversial- witness the Zalman’s meat fiasco from
>last year. This is worth talking about.
Are you kidding? What do you think gedolim ate before affordable home microscopes, hydroponically grown fruits and vegetables and optometrists?
December 8th, 2005 at 7:25 pm
>his supervision leaves much to be desired.
>Pure mozi shem rah without and factual basis.. JWB
Wow. Strong words from someone who went on Oprah and claimed there’s baby killing in the Jewish community, and runs 2 web sites designed to propagate motzi shem rah. At any rate, in my investigations I was informed that there were specific indidents discovered, so there’s plenty of factual basis. Why don’t you just ask somebody like I did instead of just making stuff up?
Besides, A & H hot dogs were rated much better than Hebrew National in a Newsday taste test.
December 8th, 2005 at 9:34 pm
I have only one website/blog, Jewish Whistleblower.
>I was informed that there were specific indidents
>discovered, so there’s plenty of factual basis. Why
>don’t you just ask somebody like I did instead of
>just making stuff up?
So give us specific details, dates and names. Up to now all claims have been proven false.
December 9th, 2005 at 10:13 am
There are 2 possibilities here:
1. Triangle K is good but there’s a nationwide conspiracy against it
2. It’s not that good.
For #1 to be true, every single rabbi has to be in on it. All you need is one maverick rabbi and the deal’s off.
So here’s the Jothar challenge- just find some big Orthodox rabbis to come out in support of Triangle K. Or do what the Star K just did, and invite members of other kashrus organizations down to the plants to see for themselves, and make a public deal of it to salvage the Triangle K name.
I did my research, unlike the agitators here, and while specifics are being left out so they can’t be savaged on the Awareness center or jwb blogs, suffice to say I’m satisfied with what I heard from 5 or 6 different sources, who I know to be reliable people who tell the truth, and are willing to buck the system to tell me the truth. Do your research or be silent.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:03 pm
Jothar
your a liar,
“I did my research” first you made a claim about motts quikly to retract it, then its ocean spray, your full of it, is your name Bendury?
Agaim no one is saying its a nationwide conspiracy, just a story that is said enough times is tended to be believed, you dont have to be “in on it”
Guess what i did my research too and found many prominent Rabbonim who will never say anything negative about tri k, Ask Reb Dovid Feinstein if you can eat tri k , his answer has been yes its no diff then any other hashgacha.
What i did find out is that the leniencies that might have been relied upon years ago, are not today, since the whole kosher market thing, were many leniencies dont have to be relied upon today because the companies want to work with the kosher market
Your sources are just behind the times, you can eat what you want, but from a Halachik perspective its a good Hasgacha,
Let me ask you a question is tri k a concervative standard supervision that gives on non kosher grape juice, non kosher rennit, gellatin like some others out there, who dont deny it they just dont hold by all derabanans, NO tri k is not, so its perfectly kosher, you have stories.. i heard tons of stories on many hasgachas so what..
December 9th, 2005 at 1:24 pm
>Yosef
Deal. Because some of the people I spoke to were talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”L and they told me not to eat Triangle K.
I’m not Bendury. I speak to reliable rabbis. You’re clearly related to Triangle K. I hate people being smeared as much as you do. That’s why I did my research- to affirm that it is in fact an unreliable hashgacha. If Reb Dovid holds of Triangle K, just have him come out in support, publish the letter, and take it from there? I don’t mind eating any hechsher as long as it’s reliable- which is why, based on my rabbi, I bought Dole pre-checked romaine lettuce mixture for shabbos despite the Kol Korei. My rabbi doesn’t play politics, he just calls it as it is.
The ball is in Tri-K’s court. Get the rabbis, make your case publicly, and you have allies among the non-yes-men if you can make it effectively. Do that & I’m in- Mott’s applesauce, Ocean Spray, etc. (Although not hebrew national- not glatt.) Otherwise, I stand by my research
December 9th, 2005 at 2:46 pm
Jother
I happen to not be related, but have davened many times in the city and met R’ Ralbag. My impressions and research is as i stated above, personally i have heard Reb Dovid say this when asked, (he would know more then talmidim), but i dont think he is into a pr campaign, he is a ish halacha and that is it.
December 9th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
Funny. Tri-K has to PROVE it is good, but Jothar and other Tri-K bashers do not have to PROVE Tri-K is bad – all they have to do is say so.
Well, tht is not how halakha works. Rabbi Ralbag is a learned, shomer Shabbos man with semicha who is also knowlegable about the food industry. As such, he has a presumption of kashrut.
If Tri-K is unreliable, PROVE IT. Get your unnamed rabbi to stand up and explain why. If he has no first-hand knowlege of Tri-K “problems,” and is relying on others’ assessments, let those third parties stand up and PUBLICLY explain themselves.
Otherwise, Tri-K is good.
Put up or shut up.
December 10th, 2005 at 6:35 pm
Shmarya,
That’s not how chazaka works. Triangle K is bechezkas unreliable based on previous research of everyone else. If it’s good now, it’s up to Triangle K to prove it’s good- publish their standards. Invite others to check out their plant. Get haskomos. And then take on this X-files-like “world-wide conspiracy against Tri-K” that somehow causes people of totally different hashkofos and politics to all unite somehow against Tri-k for no good reason. More likely, their standard isn’t good enough.
I don’t work for any kashrus agency. I have no dogs in this fight. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. No conspiracy theories.
December 10th, 2005 at 7:14 pm
>Deal. Because some of the people I spoke to were talmidim
>of Reb Moshe ZT�L and they told me not to eat Triangle K.
So both you and your rabbonim engage in mozi shem rah.
>That’s why I did my research- to affirm that it is in fact
>an unreliable hashgacha.
Research? Sounds like false rumors was the extent of your inquiries.
>If Reb Dovid holds of Triangle K, just have him come
>out in support, publish the letter, and take it from there?
Why don’t you produce evidence that Triangle K is unreliable? If you’ve done “research” why is that so difficult?
>I don’t mind eating any hechsher as long as it’s reliable-
>which is why, based on my rabbi, I bought Dole
>pre-checked romaine lettuce mixture for shabbos despite
>the Kol Korei. My rabbi doesn’t play politics, he just calls
>it as it is.
Incredible. How do you think peolpe ate romaine lettuce before high pressured washers and optometrists?
>The ball is in Tri-K’s court. Get the rabbis, make your
>case publicly, and you have allies among the
>non-yes-men if you can make it effectively.
Guiilty until proven innocent?
>Do that & I’m in- Mott’s applesauce, Ocean Spray,
>etc. (Although not hebrew national- not glatt.) Otherwise,
>I stand by my research
What research? All you have is innuedo, rumor and out and out lies.
December 10th, 2005 at 8:04 pm
This is a very interesting thread about “Triangle K”. I like it how I’m hearing both sides of the story.
But Shmarya, Yosef, and Jewishwhistleblower, I just got done reading R’ Zelig Plishkin’s sefer “Guard Your Tongue”; (adapted from the Chofetz Chayim’s “Shmiras Haloshon” and I’m GUESSING that the reason why Jothar, Sandman, etc… won’t get into specifics as to why the Triangle K (and many others) is considered “unreliable” or unacceptable (on items where kashrus supervision is “”required” is because it might possibly be considered Loshon Hora according to “Guard Your Tongue”.
According to R’ Plishkin’s book, Loshon Hora is still normally forbidden even if it’s done “Kinaas Ha’emes” (paasion for the truth) and it was spoken the intent of “l’shem Shomayim” and without any bit of malice. In fact, in “Guard Your Tongue”, the entry on Kinaas Haemes says that the only bad thing we’re allowed to say about someone’s kashrus or a hashgacho is something like this: Berel might want to warn Jeff not to eat in Ploni Almoni’s house or use hashgacho X. If this is Berel’s only intention, then he’s allowed to tell Jeff. Basically, Rabbi Plishkin says that we’re only allowed to relate the details of an unacceptable act if one’s intention is constructive.
Incidentally, nowadays most Torah observant communities only accept unconditionally (on items needing hashgacho) about 10% to 15% of the world’s kashrus agencies. And also, the Half Moon K has been in the process of upgrading their kashrus standards and according to the cRc (Chicago Rabbinical Council, that’s what my shul in Des Moines goes by), there are a handful of products under the Half Moon K which are now acceptable such as Kikkoman soy sauce, Rosen’s breads, Matt’s cookies, and bagged veggies.
Anyways, this is an interesting thread. Shavua tov and a gut voch.
December 10th, 2005 at 11:42 pm
>JWB
Sorry, that’s YOUR game- as long as the name appears on JWB or awareness center, they’re guilty until proven otherwise.
This conversation is becoming more and more Pythonesque. If my usually reliable rabbis tell me what to eat and what not to eat, I rely on them. I rely on them for my maaros too. Are they lying then? It was proven to the rabbis years ago that they were unreliable. It doesn;t have to be proven here just because JWB and Shmarya say so.
So let’s say Tri-K got better in recent years, but nobody knows it because they still know the old “reid”. Could be. Since people believe that they’re bad, it behooves them to clear their name by letting everyone know their standards. Star K is independent and does what they feel is right, not what the askanim dictate. If Tr-K is reliable, they would be first to agree. And then my rabbi would agree, and other, independent-minded Orthodox rabbis who follow halacha, not the street.
Tri-K’s unreliablility was proven years ago. I know some details which I’m not divulging (& I’m working to contact the person who personally witnessed one of the problems and get even more details which shall not be shared either- it’s for my my own edification).
Was there some politics? Maybe. But it was proven to evryone else’s satisfaction years ago that Tri-K is not reliable enough. As even Yosef said, they rely on kulos which other kashrus agencies don’t rely on. No conspiracy. no scandal. Just differences of opinion on what’s good enough to keep the pigs out of our bellies. If they upped their standards, let the world know. All I see on their side now, other than some vague “Many rabbis”, are JWB and Shmarya. With all due respect to these 2, their say-so will not suffice.
Rabbi Belsky is a talmid of Reb Moshe, and is not a member of the RCA. No RCA politics there, and he follows Reb Moshe. He is known to be very honest- he even writes a column on honesty.
Check out Rabbi Belsky’s column on honesty for more details.
If Tri-K is good, let him come out and say so. The world is waiting.
December 11th, 2005 at 2:56 am
Jothar
You misquated me by saying something i never said “they rely on kulos which other agencies dont rely on” i never said anything to that extent, all i said that leniencies that might have been relied upon years ago dont seem aplicable today do to the kosher market demand, leniencies were in use by all the kashrus agencies back then too ou etc’ i never said “they rely on kulus which other agencies dont rely on”, i have no idea , maybe other agencies rely on kulos they dont rely on , but you are great at misquoting and concluding opinions based on how you want to see it, as is aparent from this board.
December 11th, 2005 at 3:01 am
Yakovadam
dont be so naive, “Jothar and sandman dont get in to specifics because they are worried about lashon harah”,
please, all they are doing is spreading loshon horah /motzi shem rah
they cant give specifics because there are no specifics,
continue reading your book and you will discoover that there is a transgression on accepting / believing loshon horah too.
December 11th, 2005 at 9:41 am
>Sorry, that’s YOUR game- as long as the name appears
>on JWB or awareness center, they’re guilty until proven
>otherwise.
1) I put information on my blog based on documentation, not rumors or innuendo.
2) The Awareness Center only puts up cases based on documentation. I know as I’ve submitted dozens of names to them that they could not put up due to the absence of documentation.
>This conversation is becoming more and more
>Pythonesque. If my usually reliable rabbis tell me
>what to eat and what not to eat, I rely on them.
>I rely on them for my maaros too. Are they lying
>then? It was proven to the rabbis years ago that
>they were unreliable. It doesn;t have to be proven
>here just because JWB and Shmarya say so.
I have yet to see a kashrut controversy that was l’shem shomayim. Many decades ago, people and rabbonim used to tell me one story after another about this kashrut agency and that kashrut agency. Most stories were utterly ridiculous but some seemed reasonable as they were mixed with a little truth (as all the best lies are). What I started to do was trace every story and take them directly to the source. Guess what I discovered? They were all false.
If Rabbonim have information that someone in the kashrut industry is doing something wrong, it takes one phone call to contact that person inform them of what is wrong and if necessary inform them if they will not change what they are doing you will publicize the chillul to protect the community. As none of your Rabbis appear to be doing that, I can only conclude that once again this is not l’shem shomayim.
>So let’s say Tri-K got better in recent years,
Who says anything they ever did was a violation of halacha?
>but nobody knows it because they still know the old
>“reid�. Could be. Since people believe that they’re bad,
>it behooves them to clear their name by letting everyone
>know their standards.
You could phone them and determine their standards. But again if they rely on legitimate kulos what’s the problem? They are opperating inside halacha.
>Star K is independent and does what they feel is right,
>not what the askanim dictate. If Tr-K is reliable, they
>would be first to agree.
Really? When they could take away business by claiming to have the mysterious “higher standard”?
>And then my rabbi would agree, and other, independent-minded
>Orthodox rabbis who follow halacha, not the street.
Once again, huh?
>Tri-K’s unreliablility was proven years ago.
Documentation please.
>I know some details which I’m not divulging
>(& I’m working to contact the person who personally
>witnessed one of the problems and get even more
>details which shall not be shared either- it’s for my
>my own edification).
So basically, you have rumor and inneuendo.
>Was there some politics? Maybe. But it was proven
>to evryone else’s satisfaction years ago that Tri-K is
>not reliable enough.
When, how, by who? Details please.
>As even Yosef said, they rely on kulos which other
>kashrus agencies don’t rely on.
So what? Other agencies don’t rely on kulos that some other agency might not because of the mysterious “higher standard”? So what? Why can'’t we rely on kulos?
>No conspiracy. no scandal. Just differences of opinion on
>what’s good enough to keep the pigs out of our bellies.
Soubds to me more like ignorance, rumor, inneuendo and lies. And I suspect it will have zero effect on “keep(ing) the pigs out of our bellies”.
> If they upped their standards, let the world know.
>All I see on their side now, other than some vague
>“Many rabbis�, are JWB and Shmarya. With all due
>respect to these 2, their say-so will not suffice.
So far we’ve shown that the people attacking triangle k don’t know:
1) the facts
2) halacha
>Rabbi Belsky is a talmid of Reb Moshe, and is not a
>member of the RCA. No RCA politics there, and he
>follows Reb Moshe. He is known to be very honest- he
>even writes a column on honesty.
>Check out Rabbi Belsky’s column on honesty for
>more details.
>If Tri-K is good, let him come out and say so. The world
>is waiting.
Has he put anything in writing why Triangle-K isn’t good? If not what is your point? Do you ever have one based on facts or halacha?
December 11th, 2005 at 12:18 pm
Here’s a good example of the Chief Rabbanut in Israel putting out a letter/psak based on false information to smear someone in the Kashrut industry.
The Rabbi in this case just wanted to provide the poor in his community kosher meat for the Pesach seder. Look at what the “kashrut establishment� tried to do to him and his efforts.
1) ...
1a) Google translation:
...
2) ...
3) ...
3a) Google translation:
...
But then with the revelation of fraudulent rabbinic degrees being given by the Chief rabbanut to 100s of non-frum people, there are many serious questions:
Here’s a link to the hebrew version of this story:
English: ...
Hebrew: ...
and a sample of one of these fake “degrees”:
...
There’s no question this is out and out fraud and theft.
These degrees state that the holder studied 5 years in a yeshiva when they only studied 2 years part time. Any real academic institution that would do something like this would be out of business.
The problem is that this is the Chief Rabbanut of Israel. The one all our Mordechai Tendler friends claim is the most honest and trustworthy in world.
Clearly that is not the case. This is an organization that has conspired to make money by charging tuition and producing false degrees so others could get higher salaries based on false credentials. So we have an organization of gnavim. So what are their rulings worth?
An interesting question, now that we have hundreds on non-religious, non-shomer shabbos, non-shomer mitzvos, secular rabbis with these rabbinical degrees, how long before some of them end up with pulpit positions chuz l’aretz with these “credentials”. Have any already?
December 11th, 2005 at 12:39 pm
Here’s a good example of the Chief Rabbanut in Israel putting out a letter/psak based on false information to smear someone in the Kashrut industry.
The Rabbi in this case just wanted to provide the poor in his community kosher meat for the Pesach seder. Look at what the “kashrut establishment� tried to do to him and his efforts.
1) ...
1a) Google translation:
...
2) ...
3) ...
3a) Google translation:
...
But then with the revelation of fraudulent rabbinic degrees being given by the Chief rabbanut to 100s of non-frum people, there are many serious questions:
Here’s a link to the hebrew version of this story:
English: ...
Hebrew: ...
and a sample of one of these fake “degrees”:
...
There’s no question this is out and out fraud and theft.
These degrees state that the holder studied 5 years in a yeshiva when they only studied 2 years part time. Any real academic institution that would do something like this would be out of business.
The problem is that this is the Chief Rabbanut of Israel. The one all our Mordechai Tendler friends claim is the most honest and trustworthy in world.
Clearly that is not the case. This is an organization that has conspired to make money by charging tuition and producing false degrees so others could get higher salaries based on false credentials. So we have an organization of gnavim. So what are their rulings worth?
An interesting question, now that we have hundreds if not thousands (we only know numbers from the police and military) of these non-religious, non-shomer shabbos, non-shomer mitzvos, secular rabbis with these rabbinical degrees, how long before some of them end up with pulpit positions chuz l’aretz with these “credentials”. Have any already?
December 11th, 2005 at 2:24 pm
Jothar
GIVE IT UP
December 11th, 2005 at 4:46 pm
Here’s a good example of the Chief Rabbanut in Israel putting out a letter/psak based on false information to smear someone in the Kashrut industry.
The Rabbi in this case just wanted to provide the poor in his community kosher meat for the Pesach seder. Look at what the “kashrut establishment� tried to do to him and his efforts.
see links at: ...
November 25th, 2005 at 7:53 am
December 11th, 2005 at 4:47 pm
But then with the revelation of fraudulent rabbinic degrees being given by the Chief rabbanut to 100s of non-frum people, there are many serious questions:
Here’s a link to the story:
...
There’s no question this is out and out fraud and theft.
December 11th, 2005 at 4:48 pm
fake “degree”:
...
December 11th, 2005 at 4:49 pm
here’s no question this is out and out fraud and theft.
These degrees state that the holder studied 5 years in a yeshiva when they only studied 2 years part time. Any real academic institution that would do something like this would be out of business.
The problem is that this is the Chief Rabbanut of Israel. The one all our Mordechai Tendler friends claim is the most honest and trustworthy in world.
Clearly that is not the case. This is an organization that has conspired to make money by charging tuition and producing false degrees so others could get higher salaries based on false credentials. So we have an organization of gnavim. So what are their rulings worth?
An interesting question, now that we have hundreds if not thousands (we only know numbers from the police and military) of these non-religious, non-shomer shabbos, non-shomer mitzvos, secular rabbis with these rabbinical degrees, how long before some of them end up with pulpit positions chuz l’aretz with these “credentials”. Have any already?
December 11th, 2005 at 8:59 pm
Give up? When I’m having so much fun AND I’m right?
We see Half-moon K’s status has been re-evaluated in light of changes there. When Tri-k does the same, so will the Orthodox rabbinic world.
Rabbi Belsky is the rabbinic head of the ou and still doesn’t hold of tri-k.
I had lay’s potato chips in Canada (COR hashgacha). They are very good. So if any of u out there work for tri-k, PLEEZE!!!!!! better your standards at Lay’s and tell the world- they’re good chips!
December 11th, 2005 at 9:05 pm
>Give up? When I’m having so much fun AND I’m right?
Once again … you provide us with … nothing.
>We see Half-moon K’s status has been re-evaluated
>in light of changes there. When Tri-k does the same,
>so will the Orthodox rabbinic world.
Changes to what? You’ve provided us of no indication of ANY problem.
>Rabbi Belsky is the rabbinic head of the ou and still
>doesn’t hold of tri-k.
So what?
>I had lay’s potato chips in Canada (COR hashgacha).
>They are very good. So if any of u out there work for
>tri-k, PLEEZE!!!!!! better your standards at Lay’s and
>tell the world- they’re good chips!
What does “better your standards” mean?
December 11th, 2005 at 10:45 pm
So go over to your local orthodox rabbi who knows something and ask him if you can eat tri-k like I did, then ask another 5 or 6 people in the know like I did, and you’ll get an answer that satisfies you.
JWB, why are THEY not doing what I asked? I have no financial stake in Tri-K’s well-being. Let them prove to the world that they’re good and then we move on.
Half-moon k proves my point. The Orthodox community re-evaluated their “unreliable” stance based on new data. Apparently, no new data has been forthcoming from the Tri-k. Either that or there’s this world-wide conspiracy that somehow unites all Jewish rabbis like else has. Being a rational being, I believe they’re unreliable.
Bettering standards, in plain English, means improving their standards to the point that people consider them reliable. Which part of that didn’t you get?
And Lay’s does make good chips. You Canadians and Tri-K eaters already know that.
BTW, where’s your rabid defense for half-moon k? Where are the supporters for them? Why are only some products called good but not others? And where are the defenders of Star K?
December 11th, 2005 at 10:48 pm
December 11th, 2005 at 10:53 pm
Sorry about that blank entry, let me try this again:
December 11th, 2005 at 10:56 pm
Jothar writes:
>Rabbi Belsky is a talmid of Reb Moshe, and is not a
>member of the RCA. No RCA politics there, and he
>follows Reb Moshe. He is known to be very honest- he
>even writes a column on honesty.
>Check out Rabbi Belsky’s column on honesty for
>more details.
>If Tri-K is good, let him come out and say so. The world
>is waiting.
Please. Rabbi Belsky works for the OU – which (allegedly) funds the RCA. Yup. No poliics there.
If the OU accepted Tri-K it would damage the OU’s business tremendously.
December 11th, 2005 at 11:00 pm
Third times the charm, I’m sorry for the above two blanks (were it didn’t show what I was trying to say):
About the Lays’ chips: The last time I checked, the plain Lay’s potato chips in the US are under the OU and excepted by just about everyone; it’s 2 or 3 of the flavored Lay’s potato chips varieties (Sour Cream n’ Onion, Dill Pickle, and Salt & Vinegar) that are under the Triangle K.
December 11th, 2005 at 11:28 pm
>So go over to your local orthodox rabbi who knows
>something and ask him if you can eat tri-k like I did,
>then ask another 5 or 6 people in the know like I did,
>and you’ll get an answer that satisfies you.
Again, where are your facts? Rumor, lies and inneundo do not make your case.
Just because you speak to people who don’t know anything means nothing.
>JWB, why are THEY not doing what I asked?
Ignorance? Stupidity? Poor information?
They obviously have not produced any evidence of wrongdoing by Rabbi Ralbag, otherwise you would have posted it
They obviously haven’t confronted Rabbi Ralbag with any allegations or concerns as you would have posted such.
So this is pure mozi shem rah.
Clearly, there is no substance to your claims.
>I have no financial stake in Tri-K’s well-being. Let
>them prove to the world that they’re good and then
>we move on.
It’s an obligation for you to either prove your case or cease your mozi shem rah and apologize to Rabbi Ralbag.
>Half-moon k proves my point. The Orthodox
>community re-evaluated their “unreliable� stance
>based on new data. Apparently, no new data has
>been forthcoming from the Tri-k. Either that or
>there’s this world-wide conspiracy that somehow
>unites all Jewish rabbis like else has. Being a
>rational being, I believe they’re unreliable.
Your argument, as usual, has no substance and you are the only one claiming a “conspiracy”. The only thing any of us is claiming is the power of mozt shem rah, which you and your rabbonim are demonstrating here.
Triangle K doesn’t have to “prove itself”, you do. Otherwise cease your smears.
>Bettering standards, in plain English, means improving
>their standards to the point that people consider them
>reliable. Which part of that didn’t you get?
The part that has to do with halacha. I can always have “higher/better standards”. I could have Lay’s potato chips that have a mashgiach t’midi, that are bishul yisrael …. but so what? As long as Triangle K follows halacha, what’s the problem?
OU and Star K don’t accept or certify non-Glatt meat? So what?
What do you think past generations and many g’dolim ate?
>And Lay’s does make good chips. You Canadians and Tri-K
>eaters already know that.
Huh?
>BTW, where’s your rabid defense for half-moon k? Where
>are the supporters for them? Why are only some products
>called good but not others? And where are the defenders
>of Star K?
When you explain what is “wrong” with some of their products then I can address your claims. As usual your argument is that you heard something but you have no facts. I can argue facts, I can’t argue your lack of information or knowledge … I can only point it out.
If idiots like you would be as stringent with the laws of shmirat halashon as with kashrut, this world would be a far better place.
December 12th, 2005 at 8:59 am
so far, no one has responded to a very simple point I made — that in this era of interoperability, where lots and lots of hechsherim are using each other — big ones, little ones… and yet no one is accepting the triangle. It is apparent that money is not the issue…and strange theories about how one org won’t use the triangle, so no on else will, are patently absurd. I repeat, until this point is answered, all the postings about Rabbi Ralbag’s religiousity have no bearing whatsoever…
My challenge to SIW was to go out and interview the major field operatives…they are the ones who have seen for themselves what happens in the field, and would have the most to say (or not to say). I personally have never reviewed a traingle plant, and though I have heard from first person inspectors who have had negative things to say about what they have actually seen, I have refrained from posting their comments because I myself did not see them, and because these reports, though they have been fairly steady over the years, may be dated in that the new administration at the triangle may have made improvements, as they did at Hebrew National. I simply want (as I am sure everyone else does) to know the current facts - once we have the data, then no further discussion would be necessary…
December 12th, 2005 at 11:50 am
>so far, no one has responded to a very simple point
>I made — that in this era of interoperability, where lots
>and lots of hechsherim are using each other — big ones,
>little ones… and yet no one is accepting the triangle.
>It is apparent that money is not the issue…and strange
>theories about how one org won’t use the triangle, so
>no on else will, are patently absurd. I repeat, until this
>point is answered, all the postings about Rabbi Ralbag’s
>religiousity have no bearing whatsoever…
Again, you and others have impugned Rabbi Ralbag and Triangle K without any factual or halachic basis. To this point all your allegations have proven without substance.
If no one accepts Triangle K, why won’t anyone go on the record with a factual basis or a halachic basis for that position?
>My challenge to SIW was to go out and interview the
>major field operatives…they are the ones who have
>seen for themselves what happens in the field, and
>would have the most to say (or not to say).
Since you and Jothar know so much, why don’t you have your “sources” contact SIW directly?
>I personally have never reviewed a traingle plant,
That much has been clear throughout.
>and though I have heard from first person inspectors
>who have had negative things to say about what they
>have actually seen,
But do they have a factual/halachic basis? Are their reports accurate or is this more mozi shem rah?
>I have refrained from posting their comments because
>I myself did not see them, and because these reports,
>though they have been fairly steady over the years,
>may be dated in that the new administration at the
>triangle may have made improvements,
Why don’t you look into the matter directly or have these people contact SIW directly if you’re really concerned at getting to the heart of the matter?
>as they did at Hebrew National. I simply want (as I am
>sure everyone else does) to know the current facts - once
>we have the data, then no further discussion would be
>necessary…
So far we have no fact that Triangle K ever did anything problematic, let alone is doing anything currently problematic.
December 12th, 2005 at 12:31 pm
jwb, master of obfuscation, manages again to ignore simple questions and points. I carry no brief for or against the triangle. Personally I wish that they would be reinstated as a reliable hashgacha.
jwb says : “Again, you and others have impugned Rabbi Ralbag and Triangle K without any factual or halachic basis. To this point all your allegations have proven without substance”
in fact I have not impugned, or made any allegations against, the triangle in any way. I have simply noted that the triangle is not accepted by the major organizations, and stated that money or feuds do not seem tenable as reasons why.
jwb says:But do they have a factual/halachic basis? Are their reports accurate or is this more mozi shem rah?
the people I have spoken in the past are honest and sincere people, and spoke factually - but, as I wrote, we need CURRENT facts and observations.
jwb asks: Why don’t you look into the matter directly or have these people contact SIW directly if you’re really concerned at getting to the heart of the matter?
I am not a reporter. SIW is, and knows his business. The current field reps are easy to contact. Whether SIW will is up to him — I wish he would because then we could get some resolution on this issue. Until then - until we know WHY no org use the triangle, I, like everyone else, will have to abide with that question and regretfully abstain from consuming triangle products.
December 12th, 2005 at 12:44 pm
sandman - If there is anybody in specific who you think is worth talking to, please suggest them by e-mail. But I’m skeptical of your claim regarding field operatives: why would they know more about a specific supervision’s reasons for being not trusted by the top brass than the top brass itself?
Also, I don’t agree with you re: large and small supervisions and their acceptance and the Triangle-K and so forth. If you had something to back this up, I’d do more looking into it, but my reporting thus far hasn’t found your claims in this regard to be true.
December 12th, 2005 at 12:59 pm
SIW - I’ll email you
December 12th, 2005 at 2:06 pm
I don’t understand, if there is indeed a problem with tri-k or with a specific product of their’s, let the “know so” report it to R’ Ralbag, and lets see how they handle it.
Only then can a clear, honest, factual opinion be confirmed.
A) we can see if they ignore the supposed problem, or immediately address it and put a change into affect.
or
B) have a reason halachikly why they hold it is not a problem and based on that supervise it.
As a good reporter S.I.W. i think that should be the way to approach it , not just based on an email from “sandman”,
December 12th, 2005 at 3:24 pm
>jwb, master of obfuscation, manages again to ignore
>simple questions and points. I carry no brief for or
>against the triangle. Personally I wish that they would
>be reinstated as a reliable hashgacha.
I just want one factual/halachic basis for calling Triangle K or Rabbi Ralbag unreliable. To date you have produced nothing put inneuendo, rumor and false claims.
>jwb says : “Again, you and others have impugned Rabbi
>Ralbag and Triangle K without any factual or halachic basis.
>To this point all your allegations have proven without substance�
>
>in fact I have not impugned, or made any allegations against,
>the triangle in any way.
Every time you claim they are unreliable it is pure mozi shem rah.
>I have simply noted that the triangle
>is not accepted by the major organizations, and stated that
>money or feuds do not seem tenable as reasons why.
If so put on the record any “major” organization and its reasons, otherwise how can you eliminate reasons outside kashrut/reliability?
>jwb says:But do they have a factual/halachic basis? Are
>their reports accurate or is this more mozi shem rah?
>
>the people I have spoken in the past are honest and sincere
>people, and spoke factually - but, as I wrote, we need
>CURRENT facts and observations.
Are you claiming that these people could not be mistaken? How can you possibly know? You have zero facts.
>jwb asks: Why don’t you look into the matter directly or
>have these people contact SIW directly if you’re really
>concerned at getting to the heart of the matter?
Or call Rabbi Ralbag personally.
>I am not a reporter. SIW is, and knows his business.
And yet you report rumors and inneuendo here.
> The current field reps are easy to contact. Whether
>SIW will is up to him — I wish he would because then
>we could get some resolution on this issue. Until then
>- until we know WHY no org use the triangle, I, like
>everyone else, will have to abide with that question
>and regretfully abstain from consuming triangle products.
Again, you cannot make public statements like this without facts. You are engaging in pure mozi shem rah.
December 12th, 2005 at 9:06 pm
BTW, Bird’s Eye Frozen Vegetables are also good.
December 12th, 2005 at 9:10 pm
>BTW, Bird’s Eye Frozen Vegetables are also good.
And that need saying … why?
What possibly could be a problem with frozen vegetables?
Seriously.
December 12th, 2005 at 10:32 pm
You’re right- no problem with frozen vegetables. That’s why you can trust Tri-k for this.
The problems with Tri-k date back 30 years. It’s yadua lakol. The elder Rabbi Ralbag was informed about them years ago. This isn’t current politics.
December 12th, 2005 at 11:52 pm
>You’re right- no problem with frozen vegetables. That’s why
>you can trust Tri-k for this.
1) Why do I need any kosher certification on this product?
2) You still haven’t indicated why I can’t trust Triangle-K.
>The problems with Tri-k date back 30 years.
What problems? Factual and halachic please.
>It’s yadua lakol.
And yet you still can’t articulate them.
>The elder Rabbi Ralbag was informed about them
>years ago.
By?
>This isn’t current politics.
Please explain how you managed to eliminate all other possibilities please.
For example, one could argue:
You mean attacking an organization that certifies non-Glatt meat which is cheaper and has higher schita success rates isn’t in the interests of other Kashrut organizations that are out to convince you, that you can only use a more expensive Glatt meat (whatever today’s Glatt standard is).
And I’m sure we can come up with other possibilities as well.
December 13th, 2005 at 9:22 pm
Judging from this thread, kashrut certification in the galut is a mess. Or have I missed something?
December 13th, 2005 at 11:38 pm
JWB, I am very impressed with this “impugning the integrity of Rabbi Ralbag”. It all sounds so sincere…until I look again at your websites and remind myself who’s the real rabbi impugner.
Like Sandman says, every single kashrus agency out there, no matter what stripe and no matter how far away from New York politics, rejects Tri-K. You impugn a lot less rabbis when you assume Tri-K is unreliable than when you assume it’s reliable and every single one of those thousands of rabbis are playing politics.
You also sound more logical. A conspiracy involving thousands of rabbis would be mind-boggling to pull off. By its nature, it’s also patently ludicrous. It’s almost as ridiculous as alleging baby killing in the Jewish community.
Oh wait. You did that too. Never mind.
December 13th, 2005 at 11:58 pm
Jothar
it seems like you have nothing to say besides going back to the “jwb website and baby killings” are you that desperate to find factual kashrus problems.
December 14th, 2005 at 12:44 am
Javy,
The problems are there. I did my research. Everyone knows it. I know some specifics, still working on finding out more. I talked to 6 or 7 people in the know about it, none of them told me it’s good. Many of them are independent-minded and care about the truth, not about toeing the line. They still reject it after all these years. How much research did YOU do?
I take it you’re a believer in this all-encompassing conspiracy too, rather than just accept that the people whose job it is to find out these things found out it’s not good? Why is it that every single kashrus organization, who are at odds over everything, even the ones outside the NY sphere of influence, believes Tri-K is unreliable.
Half-Moon K made changes and is no longer a kashrus pariah. Why can’t Tri-K? I can’t believe that there’s a worldwide conspiracy against Tri-K that doesn’t apply to Half-moon K. If Half-moon K can get accepted, so can Tri-K. They just have to up their standards.
December 14th, 2005 at 11:45 am
>JWB, I am very impressed with this “impugning the integrity
>of Rabbi Ralbag�. It all sounds so sincere…until I look again
>at your websites and remind myself who’s the real rabbi
>impugner.
My material is documented.
Your claim are simply rumors and innuendo and frankly still contain absolutely no factual/halachic substance.
>Like Sandman says, every single kashrus agency out there,
>no matter what stripe and no matter how far away from
>New York politics, rejects Tri-K.
So what? Do any of these organizations accept non-Glatt meat?
Unless you can produce documentation Triangle K is doing something wrong halachicly or a statement from any of these organizations that Triangle is in violation of halacha, how can you continue to impugn them and Rabbi Ralbag?
On what basis have you not totally violated the laws of shmirat halashon?
>You impugn a lot less rabbis when you assume Tri-K is
>unreliable than when you assume it’s reliable and every
>single one of those thousands of rabbis are playing politics.
Thousands?
If Triangle K certifies non-Glatt Kosher meat and is within halacha in doing so, what does it matter if every other Rabbi on this planet decides to be more stringent and only certify Glatt Kosher meat? Does that make Triangle K unreliable? Absolutely not. They are within halacha in what they are doing.
>You also sound more logical. A conspiracy involving
>thousands of rabbis would be mind-boggling to pull off.
Again you exaggerate what I wrote. Kashrut is a business. A business that gets more certification fees if they convince customers and certified companies that they need certification on goods and products that in actuality are kosher without any certification and need no mashgiach (not even nichnas v’yozeh). Getting rid of kulot and much of Yoreh Deah, entails increased need for supervision and certification. That means more money and a larger organization.
>The problems are there. I did my research. Everyone knows it.
>I know some specifics, still working on finding out more.
>I talked to 6 or 7 people in the know about it, none of
>them told me it’s good.
So what? If you haven’t gone to the source your research is meaningless. You clearlty can’t articulate any factual or halachic basis for your claim/smear.
>Many of them are independent-minded and care
>about the truth, not about toeing the line. They still
>reject it after all these years. How much research
>did YOU do?
If you can articulate any factual or halachic basis for your claim/smear, then I have something to investigate further. At this point every claim you’ve made as to Triangle K being unreliable has been shown to be false or not accurate in terms of halacha.
>I take it you’re a believer in this all-encompassing
>conspiracy too, rather than just accept that the
>people whose job it is to find out these things
>found out it’s not good?
Again:
1) I’ve made no claim of conspiracy.
2) Who says Triangle K “is no good”? What is their factual/halachic basis for such claims?
3) Why should I accept from you what clearly constitutes mozi shem rah?
>Why is it that every single kashrus organization, who
>are at odds over everything, even the ones outside
>the NY sphere of influence, believes Tri-K is unreliable.
Please name those kashrus organizations. Provide quotes of specific people in charge that claim “Triangle K is unreliable” and their factual/halachic basis for such a claim.
If you can’t get them to make such statements, on what basis do you smear Triangle K and Rabb Ralbag here?
>Half-Moon K made changes and is no longer a
>kashrus pariah.
Please describe all changes and explain the original factual/halachic problem.
>Why can’t Tri-K?
Again, what changes ar you claiming they should make? Please explain what the original factual/halachic problems are that need change.
>I can’t believe that there’s a worldwide conspiracy
>against Tri-K that doesn’t apply to Half-moon K. If
>Half-moon K can get accepted, so can Tri-K. They
>just have to up their standards.
What is “up their standards” even mean? You can “up standards” ein sof. So what? For example, what is wrong with non-Glatt meat? Why does it have to be “upped” to a Glatt standard?
If their past, current and future standards are within halacha, what is the problem? Why can’t you articulate the problem you claim they have?
December 14th, 2005 at 7:55 pm
My, this discussion is getting more and more interesting. I myself generally don’t like those chumros (stringencies) that aren’t halachic requirements. But if my local qualified Orthodox rabbi says certain hashgachos aren’t acceptable on things which “require kashrus supervision”, then that’s the way it goes for me under normal circumstances.
The LOR’s in my community (based on the Chicago Rabbinical Council, OU, and other similar groups) do not consider Triangle K to be acceptable on items requiring “reliable kashrus certification/supervision.” But there are still a handful of things under the Tri-K that they do permit such as Sunmaid raisins, most basic Bird’s Eye frozen veggies, certain Del Monte canned veggies and canned fruit items, Ocean Spray cranberry sauce, and the 2 UNFLAVORED Mott’s applesauces.
Like I mentioned before, I consider it important to hear both sides of the story. And heated discussions and major differences of opinion like this (along with numerous events in our world) remind me of R’ Elchonon Wassermans’ posuk “B’ikvisah Meshchichah Chutzpah Yasgie”, or: In the era before Moshiach, there will be an abundance of chutzpah.
When Jothar was saying that “….every kashrus organization, who are at odds over everything, even the ones outsides the NY sphere of influence,
believes Tri-K is unreliable”, I think he meant to say every UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTABLE kashrus organzation…..believes that Triangle K is unreliable.
I’m not sure what the other “unreliable” or “unacceptable” kashrus agencies think about the Tri-K. As I mentioned last week, I’ve heard that only about 10% to 15% of the world’s 730 or so kashrus agencies are considered universally acceptable or reliable. But in response to JWB asking Jothar to “please name those kashrus organizations” (that consider Triangle K to be unreliable), the answer is quite a few such as: OU, OK, Chof K, Star-K, cRc, Upper Mehadrin Kosher (St. Paul), OV (St. Louis), Va’ad Harabbonim of Seatlle along with dozens of others.
In regards to JWB asking what changes were made at the Half Moon K for them to be considered “reliable” or more acceptable, what I know comes from a combination: of talking to the former Rosh Kollel of the Community Kollel we use to have here in Des Moines, a rav with the cRc, and an article I read online from the LA Jewish Journal (published in January 2004).
From the LA Jewish Journal article in their 1/23/2004 edition, “A More Reliable Kosher Label”, I learned about a few changes the Half Moon K made to the way they run things:
1. Computerizing 90+ years worth of files on products under their hashgacho.
2. A tracking system was put together that helps in finding out whether there are products that have unauthorized Half Moon K symbols on them.
3. Making sure that each company whose products are under the Half Moon K would have regular unannounced inspections from the Half Moon K’s rabbinic field reps.
The Half Moon K’s upgrades were started a few years ago by their former Rav Hamachshir R’ Chaim Hisiger. Their current Rav Hamachshir is R’ Zvi Boruch Hollander, and progress has been made with the Half Moon K gradually tightening their kashrus standards to the point where our community and the universally accepted hashgachos now say that Half Moon K can now be accepted on a case-by-case basis.
I talked with one of the rabbonim from the cRc about this and he told me that R’ Hollander has done a wonderful job cleaning up the problems the Half Moon K had BUT that there is still much more that needs to be done, tremendous changes like this take time. The cRc told me that at the present time the following Half Moon K items (where “reliable hashgacha” is required) are permitted: Canned veggies, bagged salads, Kikkoman soy sauce, Matt’s cookies, and Rosen’s breads.
But other agencies might give slightly different answers, someone who posted on kosherblog.net was told that Rabbi Eidlitz (of Kosherquest) considered most of the Half Moon K products (one with Half Moon K’s new labeling policies such as the word “pareve” by the symbol) acceptable. I know of local “modern orthodox” rov in the Chicago area (for a shul a Chicago friend of mine goes to) who also allows a few more Half Moon K products for his shul: V-8, Campbell’s tomato juice, Newman’s Own tomato sauces, and Mrs. T’s perogies.
Bottom line, the Torah-observant world at large and the unconditionally accepted kashrus agencies are now beginning to accept Half Moon K on a case by case basis. Of course, I do believe that as with other matters of Judaism, one should ask his or her qualified Orthodox rabbi about what they should do for kashrus.
Steven (SIW) and others who are interested in getting thorough answers on kashrus supervision issues like this, I would suggest that you talk to the cRc in Chicago. They are non-profit and from what I’ve been told, the kashrus policies they have seem to be based more on what they (and their posek, R’ Gedalia Schwartz) consider to be halachically acceptable instead of based on politics or money. They are located on the web at .... There are several rabbonim at the cRc who I think would be able to help you such as Rabbi Fishbane (cRc’s kashrus administrator) or Rabbi Sharp (their business manager).
December 14th, 2005 at 8:26 pm
>As I mentioned last week, I’ve heard that only
>about 10% to 15% of the world’s 730 or so
>kashrus agencies are considered universally
>acceptable or reliable.
Why are 85-90% of kashrus agencies not universally acceptable or reliable?
December 14th, 2005 at 8:51 pm
>But if my local qualified Orthodox rabbi says
>certain hashgachos aren’t acceptable on things
>which “require kashrus supervision�,
>then that’s the way it goes for me under
>normal circumstances.
What requires kashrus supervision?
>The LOR’s in my community (based on the
>Chicago Rabbinical Council, OU, and other
>similar groups) do not consider Triangle K
>to be acceptable on items requiring “reliable
>kashrus certification/supervision.�
1) So what?
2) Why?
3) Is there a factual/halachic basis?
>But there are still a handful of things under the
>Tri-K that they do permit such as Sunmaid raisins,
>most basic Bird’s Eye frozen veggies, certain
>Del Monte canned veggies and canned fruit items,
> Ocean Spray cranberry sauce, and the 2
>UNFLAVORED Mott’s applesauces.
Why do any of these items need any supervision?
>Like I mentioned before, I consider it important to
>hear both sides of the story. And heated
>discussions and major differences of opinion
>like this (along with numerous events in our
>world) remind me of R’ Elchonon Wassermans’
>posuk “B’ikvisah Meshchichah Chutzpah Yasgie�, or:
>In the era before Moshiach, there will be an
>abundance of chutzpah.
All I ask is that people here state the factual/halachic basis for their smear against Triangle K. No one seems to have the analytical ability to do so.
>When Jothar was saying that “….every kashrus
> organization, who are at odds over everything,
>even the ones outsides the NY sphere of influence,
>believes Tri-K is unreliable�, I think he meant to
>say every UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTABLE kashrus
>organzation…..believes that Triangle K is unreliable.
1) So what?
2) Why?
3) Is there a factual/halachic basis?
>I’m not sure what the other “unreliable� or
>“unacceptable� kashrus agencies think about
>the Tri-K.
Who cares unles there a factual/halachic basis for their opinions?
>But in response to JWB asking Jothar to “please name
>those kashrus organizations� (that consider Triangle K
>to be unreliable), the answer is quite a few such as:
>OU, OK, Chof K, Star-K, cRc, Upper Mehadrin Kosher
>(St. Paul), OV (St. Louis), Va’ad Harabbonim of Seatlle
>along with dozens of others.
1. So what?
2. How many of the 100s of kashrut organizations do the above organizations consider reliable anyway?
3. You haven’t address my full question: Provide quotes of specific people in charge that claim “Triangle K is unreliableâ€? and their factual/halachic basis for such a claim.
>In regards to JWB asking what changes were made
>at the Half Moon K for them to be considered “reliable�
>or more acceptable, what I know comes from a
>combination: of talking to the former Rosh Kollel of
>the Community Kollel we use to have here in Des
>Moines, a rav with the cRc, and an article I read
>online from the LA Jewish Journal (published in January 2004).
>
>From the LA Jewish Journal article in their 1/23/2004 edition,
>“A More Reliable Kosher Label�, I learned about a few
>changes the Half Moon K made to the way they run things:
>
>1. Computerizing 90+ years worth of files on products
>under their hashgacho.
Irrelevant.
>2. A tracking system was put together that helps in finding
>out whether there are products that have unauthorized
>Half Moon K symbols on them.
Irrelevant.
>3. Making sure that each company whose products are
>under the Half Moon K would have regular unannounced
>inspections from the Half Moon K’s rabbinic field reps.
Why? Is it really even necessary for certain products?
>The Half Moon K’s upgrades were started a few years
>ago by their former Rav Hamachshir R’ Chaim Hisiger.
>Their current Rav Hamachshir is R’ Zvi Boruch Hollander,
>and progress has been made with the Half Moon K
>gradually tightening their kashrus standards to the
>point where our community and the universally
>accepted hashgachos now say that Half Moon K can
>now be accepted on a case-by-case basis.
This paragraph is devoid of any substance.
>I talked with one of the rabbonim from the cRc about
>this and he told me that R’ Hollander has done a
>wonderful job cleaning up the problems the Half
>Moon K had BUT that there is still much more that
>needs to be done, tremendous changes like this take
>time.
I can’t even understand what the past or present problems you refer to are. Please, some facts and substance,
>The cRc told me that at the present time the following
>Half Moon K items (where “reliable hashgacha� is
>required) are permitted: Canned veggies, bagged salads,
>Kikkoman soy sauce,
Why do any of the above need a hasgacha at all?
>Matt’s cookies, and Rosen’s breads.
Please provide ingrediants and let’s determine what the issues with these items could be.
>But other agencies might give slightly different answers,
>someone who posted on kosherblog.net was told that
>Rabbi Eidlitz (of Kosherquest) considered most of
>the Half Moon K products (one with Half Moon K’s
>new labeling policies such as the word “pareve� by
>the symbol) acceptable.
No facts, substance, halacha … please, give us something to discuss.
>I know of local “modern
>orthodox� rov in the Chicago area (for a shul a
>Chicago friend of mine goes to) who also allows
>a few more Half Moon K products for his shul: V-8,
>Campbell’s tomato juice, Newman’s Own tomato
>sauces,
Why do these need certification?
>Bottom line, the Torah-observant world at large
>and the unconditionally accepted kashrus agencies
>are now beginning to accept Half Moon K on a case
>by case basis. Of course, I do believe that as with
>other matters of Judaism, one should ask his or
>her qualified Orthodox rabbi about what they
>should do for kashrus.
It’s sad but Judaism has lost that spark where people actually used their intellect to research these things or actually tried to get answers with substance. Now it’s simply follow your leader.
We live in a time where people follow the eser miraglim and not yoshua and kalev.
>Steven (SIW) and others who are interested in
>getting thorough answers on kashrus supervision
>issues like this, I would suggest that you talk to
>the cRc in Chicago. They are non-profit and from
>what I’ve been told, the kashrus policies they
>have seem to be based more on what they
>(and their posek, R’ Gedalia Schwartz) consider
>to be halachically acceptable instead of based on
>politics or money.
Can anyone confirm they are a non-profit, without any for-profit branch and what management salaries are?
December 14th, 2005 at 9:00 pm
I would appreceiate if people here could stop using the arguments:
1) X is unreliable because Y says he’s unreliable.
2) X is unreliable because everyone knows so.
3) X had problems in the past but his standards are now better because everyone says so.
There are utterly idiotic arguments.
December 14th, 2005 at 9:12 pm
Yakov Adam
Thanks for your long post, but i think you are missing the boat, the jwb’s and others on this board are saying one basic thing, (not what jothar tries to put in their mouth about concpiracies) but that the halacha is eid echad neeman beissurin and until a valid claim has been presented (to trik with eidim bais din) infringing on halacha and disregarded by tri k, until then it is all motzi shem rah and forbidden to be said or believed, (that doesnt mean you have to eat it), so it is irrelevant what the fishbeins and the schwarts and the katzes say… get it….
December 15th, 2005 at 12:22 am
Javy, an eid echad is only neeman as far as he knows. If the eid echad doesn’t visit plants often enough, then he doesn’t know. He is believed to say as far as I know there’s no problem, but people have a right to view that as not knowing.
You obviously work for the Tri-K or are related to the Ralbags- not that there’s anything wrong with that. Why not follow the half-moon k approach and make yourselves a good hechsher?
December 15th, 2005 at 9:11 am
JWB - wow, you seem to know almost everything! And you stick purely to facts and halacha in your arguments. Please tell me, where did you get semicha? Or at least, who is your rabbi to whom I can go to confirm that your views are valid within halacha?
December 15th, 2005 at 9:32 am
Jothar
Why does every positive post have to mean that you either work for them or are related to them, (thats what you shot at Yosef’s Dec 9th posting too)
How about im an honest outsider reading these posts without NEGIOS , something that you clearly are NOT
p.s.
by the way how can i be working for them, i thought they got no one working for them as you peviously claimed “no masgichim”
December 15th, 2005 at 11:30 am
>JWB - wow, you seem to know almost everything!
Never have claimed that and I doubt anyone today “knows almost everyting”. The fact is the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know. Unless of course you are Jothar or Sandman then you just claim to know everything. And if you don’t like it, just ignore it or claim it was forged.
>And you stick purely to facts and halacha in your arguments.
I try. The key is not to make arguments that end in because or because X told me.
>Please tell me, where did you get semicha?
Please tell me the relevence of the question/ I’m not making Psak here. I’m not claiming smicha. And frankly what does smicha really mean anyway today? We haven’t had real smicha for many centuries at this point (unless you follow the recent Sanhedrin set up in Israel). Particularly, with the chief rabbanute in Israel giving out over 1,000 smcha documents to non-religious, non-shomer-shabbos, non- shomer-mitzvos jews, what does smicha mean?
>Or at least, who is your rabbi to whom I can go to confirm
>that your views are valid within halacha?
Go discuss it with any Rabbi you want, just get them to sit down with you and review the source materials. You may have to go to several Rabbis before you find one who is knowlegable and a good teacher.
Good luck in your search.
December 15th, 2005 at 12:05 pm
Ask the CRC to release its tax records and year-end report. I tried to get it severa times. The CRC refused.
Much (but not all) of the “raising standards” mentioned by Yakovadam are not necessary if one is pakening according to basic halakha. Their purpose is to preserve humrot.
What big kashrut agencies do is force little kashrut agencies to comply with these “raised standards” (aka, humrot), which raises the cost of the small agencies’ supervision. This provides incentive for food producers to switch to the big agencies, because the costs are now very close.
I believe if the kashrut agencies books were audited by an independent auditor and the results made public, this would become very clear.
Right now literally hundreds (if not thousands) of rabbis make all or part of their income from the OU, OK, Star-K and CRC. This includes many shul rabbis.
Paskening l’kula (or even simply stam halakha) costs them money and endangers their jobs.
SIW, follow the money.
December 15th, 2005 at 2:56 pm
It seems what it comes down to according to Jothar’s claims are not visiting plants enough.
Please explain the problem: Either it needs a masgiach temidi , like they clearly have when needed, or yotzi venichnas is enough , and then the claim of not visiting enough seems irrelevant in halacha the difference between a masgiach coming in 10 times a year or 4 times a year, is nothing more then greater salaries for more employees (Shul Rabbis) like Shmaryah posted, and greater yearly charges for the agencies themselves, its called bussine$$
December 15th, 2005 at 3:46 pm
An aside, since we’ve been discussing nonsense in Kashrut.
The Jewish Press in another anonymous article/psak is arguing
that the decision of an organization implicated in major fraud,
gneivah (not to mention giving over 1,000 non-frum, non-shomer
shabbos, non shomer-mitzvot jews the title of Rabbi
... ) should make the
kashrut of CRC unreliable.
What nonsense.
Tendler Decision Sparks Fallout
By Special to The Jewish Press
December 14, 2005
...
December 15th, 2005 at 5:10 pm
JWB - It says “companies” are “reconsidering” the supervisor, which doesn’t at all address its reliability or credibility, but speaks more to a straightforward boycott.
December 15th, 2005 at 5:40 pm
>JWB - It says “companies� are “reconsidering�
>the supervisor, which doesn’t at all address its
>reliability or credibility, but speaks more to a
>straightforward boycott.
Please read the following from the article refering to various unnamed rabbonim.
“They are also asking whether the activities of the RCA-affiliated Beth Din of America, the chief judge of which was named as a defendant in the bet din proceeding, can have any halachic legitimacy. ”
That is a clear questioning of reliability and credability.
December 15th, 2005 at 6:09 pm
Ya’akov Adam / Jothar
Half moon k ’s improvement seems like good P.R., a good decision on their part , because that is what it all seems about,
and maybe tri k should follow that path of P.R.,
but honestly P.R. does not have much to do with Halacha.
December 15th, 2005 at 8:36 pm
JWB - Yes, but that’s not kashrut-related.
December 15th, 2005 at 9:44 pm
>JWB - Yes, but that’s not kashrut-related.
>The RCA leadership is reportedly being challenged by some of its
>members
Rabbis.
>to answer how the group can ignore the rulings of an
>established bet din. Some
Rabbis.
>are asking whether performance of religious functions
>such as wedding ceremonies, KASHRUT SUPERVISION
>and serving as pulpit rabbis can be compatible with
>membership in a group that has been declared in
>open defiance of the rulings of the internationally
>recognized bet din.
and then the article goes on to attack one of the main figures behind the CRC (first without naming and then by directly naming) and the CRC.
Seems Kashrut related to me.
December 16th, 2005 at 1:05 pm
I had resolved not to comment on this matter any more - I sent an email to SIW, as he requested, and I have not had a response…SIW, if the reason you are not responding is because I did not supply my name, I apologize, but I am unable to do so…it is, however, an incontrovertible fact that major orgs do not use the triangle, as is easily confimed by a glance at any of the ingredient lists mashgichim are given when they go to inspect a plant…
The only reason I am posting is to refute the good old “eid echad” argument trotted out by Javy….yes, there is a rule that an “eid echad” is ne’eman…what many do not realize is that he has to be a “kosher” witness as defined by halacha…so if you meet a pious looking jew in the street and ask him if an adjacent restaurant is kosher, his affirmative answer is meaningless because you have no idea if he is trustworthy or not…perhaps he is a gazlan, or a “mesachek b’kuvia”‘ or any one of a myriad other possible disqualifications…and (gasp!) perhaps he is pasul l’edus becuase he is nogea b’davar…so if a pious looking Jew owns a butcher shop and assures you that everything in his shop is kosher, the possibility that he is saying so for economic gain would be a major factor in weighing his testimony…and we have sadly seen examples of this in the holy city of Brooklyn, r”l…(and then the issue of chezkas issur on meat ( a d’oraisa) comes into play…
the fact that no major org uses the triangle creates what we might call a rei’usa in the ne’emanus of the triangle…this is why I think it is so important for SIW, who I believe is capable of undertaking this project, daunting though it may be, to re-establish the standing of the triangle if this can be done. Once again, nothing would make me (and a lot of other people) happier if this could be done. A good Shabbos to one and all.
December 18th, 2005 at 11:15 am
R. Ahron Soloveitchik told my rebbe that he could trust the Triangle K, and that it didn’t make sense that a rav and talmid hakham would permit treif to be in products he supervised. (This was not said with regard to meat products, since in those days Triangle K only supervised parve and dairy). Thus, R. Ahron ruled that we could eat Drakes (which used to be under Triangle K.
And now for my own point: Every hashgachah by an Orthodox rav is reliable unless you KNOW otherwise (of course, some are mehadrin). The problem is that people start by assuming a hashgachah is no good until they hear proof that it is (that’s why we are told we have to investigate hashgachot etc.). But if you show up in a town and the local rav or frum person invites you to his house to eat, you assume he is kosher. That’s what the halakhah says to do. Only if you have good knowledge that the rav is unreliable do you stop trusting it (as with Safra). But every Orthodox rav has a chazakah that his hashgachah is good UNTIL you know otherwise.
With Ralbag, all there is is innuendo and rumor. Unfortunately, once you get a bad reputation it is very hard to improve it.