Initial Interview With Rabbi Aryeh Ralbag
Ralbag is the posek and head kashruth coordinator for Triangle K, which was founded in the mid-20th century by his father, Rabbi Jehoseph Ralbag.
Summary after the jump.
Ralbag described the Triangle K’s general application and supervision process roughly similarly to that of the description by R’ Menachem Genack of the Orthodox Union.
What kind of supervision is necessary? “Some require a rabbinic representative 24 hours a day…others require frequent visits, and others require less frequent visits…
Wine and grape juice, cheese…24…baked goods 24 hours.” Some products require “Once a month supervision…others require only a few times a year, because they’re inherently kosher products…soda pop, orange juice…actual supervision on such companies don’t require a monthly visit.”
Why is Triangle K generally regarded as unreliable in much of the Orthodox community? “I’ve never heard…I don’t know why you say that…gedolim, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein never questioned Triangle K.” As well, “any honest, God-fearing Yid” wouldn’t say such things without investigating the matter, including by talking to him, because such talk is “rechilus…if such a thing exists, this is not by people who are in any way considered a gadol…if it does exist, it is maybe by people who are motivated by jealousy and economics.” And then “if you’re gonna focus on why, tell me what…did you find meat that was unkosher?”
As to relative reliability “what you call the large ones…they have always unauthorized supervision…every week have put out fliers…these are on things which contain meat, or non-kosher meat.”
Questioning his organization’s supervision would require “Willfully not taking care of something, or misleading the public, chas v’chalilah…If you’re [going to qustion my supervision]…based on what?”
As to those questioning the quality of his supervision, “Do they cover their hair, do they go to mixed beaches? These are issurim d’oraysah…so that they’re not concerned about…but when it comes to eid echad ne’eman b’issurin…”
So have you never heard that your supervision is considered generally unreliable? “Never heard, no…no one has ever told me that.”
One of the reasons people often give for your supervision being unreliable is that you’re an individual, as opposed to a large organiation. “We have hashgochos in the far east…fifteen, twenty companies…rabbinim who go out every month…supervisions all over Europe…mars, kol dor, tobleron…I have mashgichim the whole time…we hire a rov who goes visiting to all the companies…we are makpid…I’m makpid even on pas yisroel, gevinas yisroel, and you think I wouldn’t care those ingredients.”
So who do you know that does rely on your supervision? “Any hashgocha of us that comes to Israel gets the stamp of the chief rabbinate of Israel…they also give their hashgocha to products that come from abroad…any product of ours that I ask them to…all our products.”
So why do you think your supervision is considered unreliable? He guesses it’s considered unreliable “In the more modern places…in the real frum places” they eat it. He guessed it may have something to do with Wonderbread, for which “in every bakery we have a mashgiach going in every month…it doesn’t mean that everyone’s gonna eat it, it’s not pas yisroel.” But as to the general claim his supervision is unreliable “it’s preposterous, it’s horrendous, I’m shocked.”
Further, “I do what’s right by hashem…others don’t…they want to be more machmir than Rav Moshe [Feinstein], I’m ok with that…I have one policy: someone asks, I’ll tell you exactly what it is…every product that we have…it’s going through the halacha.”
How do you respond to R’ Yitzhock Abadi’s claim that supervision on many products is fundamentally unnecessary, that one can basically rely on FDA standards of disclosure to determine whether many products are kosher? “I’m not gonna speak for Rav Abadi…a big talmid chacham…he can speak for himself, he’s a big talmid chacham…if that’s permitted al pi halacha, strictly speaking, I’m sure he has what to depend on…he’s a person who is God-fearing in shamayim.”
Do you find that the larger supervision organizations are trying to squeeze you out? “Many times…to the ou, to the ok, the chof-k…the star-k never took away a hashgocha…usually when we lose a hashgocha…they apply pressure on the people who buy a product, an ingredient, and they threaten to take away the hashgocha…they monopolize, and they pressure…it’s lo al pi halacha…they do things – the OKand Kof K– which is not with yashrus, which is not with integrity…they make a chillul hashem…it’s one thing to say you want to visit the company…but a blanket statement…is something which is blatantly forbidden al pi halacha.”
Are there supervisions that you haven’t accepted? “Yes, there have been hashgochos…if I feel that sometimes the mashgiach sent is not up to my standards…or that certain leniencies are relied upon in certain products…in such a case, I would never take away the product of the person…if they would come to me to give me the product, I wouldn’t take it…there’s not integrity in how they handle how products are stolen.”
How do you respond to the claim that you’re less reliable because you’re not a large non-profit organization? “I don’t know why we’re less an organization than others are organizations…in Europe and all over…the OU is the only one that I know that’s an organization…the OK claims to be an organization…If a rov stands behind a hashgocha…halacha says eid echad ne’eman b’issurin…they’re the eid echad.”
“What we do is al pi halacha…many products on jewish baking and jewish cooking…I think this is all a public relations ploy…I’m not going to say what the other agencies rely upon…we are open, we are above-board…I say something is kosher, I guarantee it’s kosher, I eat it, al pi halacha.”
“Others don’t want to accept it, so very good…we depend on ABC…On cooking for wine, someone will say 190, someone will say 180…what we do, we’ll say openly what we do…but it’s al pi halacha…Rav Moshe has a tshuva that when you take grape juice and you cook it…175…by the crush you cook the grapes…even if it’s all done by a non-jew, it’s kosher…only considered non-kosher after it’s separated…we set up one of our large grape-juice suppliers in that way…Even if it’s fully in non-jewish hands…it’s kosher…we put a mashgiach there, but even if he wouldn’t be there, it’s kosher.”
“You can always bad-mouth somebody if you don’t…it’s innuendo…if you’re not part of the group, part of the inner-group…kosher consultant…has a magazine…and he has clients, and he pushes them…The big ones…one supports the other.”
If people claim there are problems with his supervision, “Why shouldn’t we know the problems, so we’ll know for ourselves the problems?”
“Reb Moshe writes you’re not allowed to take away a hashgocha, even if the company wants your hashgocha.”
What do you think of the trend of increasingly supervising new classes of products, such as water? “No, water doesn’t need a hashgocha…if they would ask us, I would do it, because everyone else is…salt…there are many products that don’t have to a hashgocha, you know it and I know it…frozen fresh cherries, frozen fresh strawberries.”
What about hard liquor? “We permit hard liquor…even though it’s made in caskets…al pi halacha it’s permitted…stam yaynam…They don’t blend, so far as we found out, they don’t blend any wine…we don’t give a hashgocha on whiskey anyway.”
“The only thing I’ll impugn integrity is when it comes to taking away…I know companies that hate Jews now…it’s one thing if you say you’ll…to actually threaten…if they’re not taking their supervision, they’ll bust their chops, terrible words…between 5 and 10 companies…The OU took away Coca-Cola from us…they started putting a rumor, they started refusing it…they started putting all over that it’s not kosher…cat’s eyes, pig’s eyes…you know and I know that it was kosher and it is kosher…Rav Moshe Feinstein was a major supporter of my father…the OU, they’re pretty straight, they don’t go around and take hashgochos…the emes is always interesting.”
November 18th, 2005 at 3:58 pm
R. Ahron Soloveitchik said that Triangle K was fine.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:17 pm
Something is wrong with the last paragraph. First he says the OU took Coke away, and then in the last sentence he says the exact opposite. Instead of the OU , maybe he meant the Star K (as he says earlier).
This is a great series. I can’t wait to read more.
November 19th, 2005 at 7:46 pm
Very difficult to read; this should be reformatted for clarity. Even then, I really didn’t understand whether Rabbi Ralbag was being brief and stilted in his interview or whether this was a summary/paraphrasing of his words.
Nevertheless, I found him to be somewhat disingenuous when he says “I’ve never heard” about Triangle K being regarded as unreliable. How can he not have heard?? I don’t buy it. He reiterates after being asked “So have you never heard that your supervision is considered generally unreliable?” - “Never heard, no…no one has ever told me that.” And then “He guesses it’s considered unreliable in the more modern places…in the real frum places” they eat it.” So he DOES give some credence to the claim that some do not consider it to be reliable! Although he has it backwards. In the real frum places people do NOT hold by Triangle K, more modern folks (some of them) do.
Finally, he guessed it may have something to do with Wonderbread. So why would he say that the “modern places” would NOT hold by the hasgacha because it’s not pas yisroel? That’s complete backwards again.
All I can guess is that something went wrong in the transcription.
Finally, it was explained to me by a Rav that was directly involved in the original controversy that Triangle K was originally considered unreliable due to Rabbi Ralbag’s shitah regarding cleaning food oil tankers betweeen runs of kosher and treif oil. It may be that bital b’rov did not affect the kashrus of the oil, but l’chatchilah it was not a shitah that everyone held by and thus the suspicion of Triangle K. I would love to be able to eat Triangle K products (I only use the products without oil) and it’s really in T-K’s best interest to investigate the claims of unreliability and respond to them.
This is not to negate the dirty politics of kashrus supervision that was evident in this interview.
November 19th, 2005 at 9:56 pm
He says he eats all his products, does he eat Hebrew National?
Also, he says there is a T’suvah from R’ Moshe regarding crushing grapes that way, then why is NO ONE else relying in this T’suvah, surly this procedure would be cheaper and easier than how all the others doit, by sending a team of frum guys across the country, or world, to do grape crush.
November 20th, 2005 at 4:29 am
The OK is notorious for bad-mouthing other supervisors. But none of the big agencies openly tell us what kulot they rely on (or don’t) and what level of supervision their “supervised” products really have.
Use Rubashkin shechita as an example. The throat-ripping was approved by KAJ, Chabad, the OU, and several other agencies. Is that what you want shechita to be? Is that why you buy glatt?
Follow the money, SIW. Get the IRS filings. See who gets paid what.
That is the real story.
November 21st, 2005 at 1:51 am
What a great interview, the time has come to expose these companies ou chof k ok and finnally get to hear the trik side of the story. For years we have been fed this propogandaTHAT TRI K IS TREIF . I REMEMBER AS A KID IN DAY SCHOOL I WAS HUMILIATED BY MY TEACHER SENT TO THE PRINCIPAL FOR BRINGING IN A DRAKES PRODUCT WITH TRI K, AT THE TIME THE RUMORS WERE ITS TREIF ETC (MIND YOU NOW ITS OU AND SOMEONE WORKING IN THE COMPANY ONCE TOLD ME NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAD CHANGED WHEN THE OU TOOK OVER)
What Rav Ralbag meant by the modern crowd maybe its unnacceptable is the day schools and yu and rca and ou organizatios since they are the competitors , but frum yeshivish know who Rav Ralbag is and ask him their shailos when it comes to deorayses niddah etc.
everyone has leniencies but at least with tri k you know its al pi halacha, about the oil i heard that that was only applicible in the sixtys when the oil companies werent interested in the kosher market and did not build seperate lines for kosher oil, but today this has all changed, so enjoy tri k products with oil too!
Hebrew national doesnt claim to be glatt but at least now the half amiillion jews who want regular kosher meat will be eating kosher thanks to trik , i heard they made major changes for the posotive in that facility.
November 21st, 2005 at 6:47 am
boruch hashem. boruch ralbag.
November 21st, 2005 at 9:34 am
Its amazing i was once kicked out of school for bringing in a fritos with Tri K, I think that was pretty out of hand , come to think of it I dont even think that that principals wife covered her hair, like R’ Ralbag said in his interview(it was a day school in the chicago area) but when it came to Tri K there was this prpoganda war going on.
November 21st, 2005 at 9:41 am
It seems like a typo error, the last line of the interview states ” The OU they’re pretty straight, they dont go around and take Hashgochos”
It most prrobably should of said the STAR K is pretty straight they dont go around and take HAshgochos”
come to think of it maybey that is why the big guys are starting not to like the star k, theyre honest and dont beleive in this monopoly thing
November 21st, 2005 at 10:51 am
Boroch - I have very good inof about the Hebrew National schechita and kashering system and they have been no significant changes from the way they have been processing for many years.
How is possible that Hebrew’s schechita can yeild 75% Kosher, not glatt, but Kosher, when most others don’t get more that 55% (Kosher, not Glatt)
I also now of a case when Tri-K wasn’t in conatct with a plant for a full year, until it was time to re-up for teh following year, at which time they were told, “Oh, Rabbi, we havn’t been using your certification for 5 months now, we changed to the Rabbi X”
I have more…but thats enough for now.
November 21st, 2005 at 7:21 pm
Kahrus Guy , I personnally only eat glatt so it isn’t relevant to me, but about the Hebrew National thing I have the exact opposite info, a friend of mine learns in the Kollel in Minneapollis, and apparently Hebrew National has a slaughtering house in that area, well he recalls the type of Shochtim that used to work for Hebrew N. and he says the crew that is there now he told me its a whole new face, he sees a bunch of Talmidei Chachomim, Shochtim Bodkim Mashgichim that all are employed now for Hebrew N. he even told me they are required to have a learning seder in the Kollel on their off day (sunday),
And one of the shochtim told him about the kashering, that they built a whole new facility in Greenbay WI for salting and kashering supposedly an amazing facillity Kashrus wise
My friend has quite often even met Rabbi Ralbag who comes down to his area to check on the shechita, so all lthose rumors about not being on top of the situation or once a year spot checks are only that Rumors, maybe that food product was inherently kosher and did not require more then that, or maybey there were checks done thru company production order and history files, i dont know but one thing i do know saying it is rechilus or at best motzi shem rah and accepting it is loshan hora, so lets not start with stories because that is all it is stories.
No one is forcing anyone to eat anything, but that doesnt mean were allowed to speak loshon horah because the din is ed echad neeman beissurin like the Rabbi said in his interview.
November 21st, 2005 at 7:25 pm
Kashrus Guy
P>S> by the way i asked my friend about the 75% kosher yield, he told me that is simply not true it totally fluctuates from week to week sometimes even 55%, average 60% sometimes 65%, maybe that is how it used to be, so your info is totally false.
November 21st, 2005 at 7:44 pm
Kashrus guy
talking about tri-k products is one thing, but everyone in the industry knows H.N. went thru major changes since they got the Tri K
I even heard one kashrus expert say privately this might be ono of the greatest kashrus accomplihments in the last 20 years to make sure all these jews eat real kosher meat even not being glatt
November 22nd, 2005 at 6:22 am
I am amazed that he can say that he never heard that anyone had a problem with the triangle K. His he aware that people have a problem with the heter rabbonim he issues that he charges thousands of dollar for. I legimate heter rabbonim should not cost thousands of dollars. After reading this interview I am more suspect of the tri-k. Thank you for the interview.
Sincerely,
Joshu Nathan
November 22nd, 2005 at 8:52 pm
What does that phrase mean, “a legitimate heter rabbonim”? Is the lady in the case crazy or not? If she isn’t, there is no reason to issue one, no matter how much money is paid. Please clarify. Thank you.
November 23rd, 2005 at 4:05 am
Jothar,
That is what I was trying to say I am sorry i wasn’t clear. Hopefully when he does a second interview he will be asked about this as well. Well now you understand why people do not use triangle k well at least one reason. Thanks for clarifying my post.
Joshua Nathan
November 23rd, 2005 at 2:47 pm
Joshua Nathan -
Jothar the hillpeople-
What are you guys talking about,if a heter was issued why assume that it isnt legit do you think hundred rabbis are so gullible, and the money costs what in the world do we know about the time and expenses involved.
This is the most ridiculous statement ive read yet you state something make it a fact and come to conclusion about a hasgacha, this is pure motzi shem rah!!
I personally was involved with an agunah a few years ago to try to obtain her a get, we approached many askanim rabonim etc’ but to no avail, Rabbi Ralbag sat tens of hours with both sides in negotiating and convincing and succesfully obtaining a get, and all this for no charge, I know this personalyy since i ended up paying the few hundred dollars for the actual get , to pay scribe witnesses etc’ since the wife didnt have the means.
I afterwards found tons people with similar experiences.
This sieger story that was in the paper was nothing but a Tawana braley case the judge threw it out of court -no proof of any crazy fees etc’, anyone can make up a story, especially when a get is involved a family breaks up or a din torah there will always be one party that isn’t to happy.
Look at any teshuvah sefer from the begginning of our history do you think the loosing party always likes and accepts the results, but that doesnt change the basis of the Halacha!
November 23rd, 2005 at 4:09 pm
I have heard many of the same good things Boruch has about the new Hebrew National under Rabbi Ralbag. I would also add that I worked (as a temp mashgiach, for a few months) for Hebrew National in the mid-1980’s in its Indianapolis processing plant, and I also worked in shechita that supplied Hebrew National. What I hear about today’s processing and shechita is so much better than what I saw twenty years ago, where “kosher” kill rates were in the mid to high 90% range (and, with a particular bodek, 99.9% every day, every shift).
November 24th, 2005 at 3:44 am
it is known that the Agudas haronim has charged enmorous fees for a het meah rabbonim.
November 24th, 2005 at 1:25 pm
Just went to a lecture from a kashrus inspector that works on behalf of a number of agencies. He claims that Triangle-K is very suspect partly because they don’t have inspectors (”how can one man inspect so many companies?”). R. Ralbag will often rely on phone conversations with plant owners to determine kashrus instead of on-site inspection. If there is a question or problem with a company in Sweden, the big organizations will get someone on-site. Also that R. Ralbag does not attend the major kashrus convention (AKO) to address the issues with his company. As an example of a specific questionable practice, he said that Triangle-K is one of only two kashrus organizations that will give a hechsher to products made with cochineal, a crimson dye made from insects.
After hearing this lecture and until hearing reliably to the contrary, I will avoid most Triangle-K products.
November 24th, 2005 at 2:08 pm
it is “known” that i sold youn the brooklyn bridge.
November 24th, 2005 at 3:20 pm
Jeremyb
I just did something most of you morons never thought of doing , I called Rabbi Ralbag himself in Brooklyn , I left him a message and he just called me back. I asked him if he gives supervision on drinks containing “cochniel”, also reffered to as carmine, he told me the Tri K policy always has been “that it does NOT” give a hashgocho on such products, even though there are poskim who were matir it.
He cited Ocean Spray as an example were all the years there was a pink grapefruit drink that had that cochneal in it , and they never supervised that particullar flavor drink, These are facts, the other ocean spray drinks carry the Tri K and pink grapefruit does not.
he even told me that the past few years the company decided to change that formula (for cost reasons) instead of cocneal they switched to a artificial coloring red 40 which is kosher, but as a precaution they still dont carry the Tri K on the pink grapefruit drink, as a precaution in case the company decides to switch back to cochneal.
He also told me there is a Kashering system in place after that drink before a Kosher run, and there is a masgiach (from Lakewood) going in to check up on the kashering procedures.
So here we hear reliably to the contrary from the source itself, I told him that someone lectured to the contrary, he was shocked and asked me to give him the name of this “rabbi” he would like to speak to him, to be mamid him on the emes.
So jeremyb who is this Rabbi post his name and i will forward it, I guess if he really said this publicly he is responsible for what he claimes, and if he said it publicly his name can be posted publicly, or are you hiding behind some story of a lecturer that never happened.
P.S. by the way do you really think one man does all the inspecting of all those companies, do you think he cant affored masgichim to go for him ,or send in the local masgiach from Sweden to go for him onsite.
Just because this “lecturer” told you so does not make it true, remember he is the guy that made up a lie about the cochneal which we already disproved…. need i say more…
by the way when you speak to your “lecturer” post me the company name which he claims to carry tri k on a cocneal product, and we will check it out if it exists, im so sure it doesnt exist after my conversation with the Rabbi.
November 24th, 2005 at 3:37 pm
Sholom
good post and well said.
November 24th, 2005 at 8:29 pm
>Just went to a lecture from a kashrus inspector that works
>on behalf of a number of agencies. He claims that Triangle-K
>is very suspect partly because they don’t have inspectors
>(�how can one man inspect so many companies?�).
Anyone who can make blanket statements like this should be immediately ignored. Statements like this are absolutely meaningless.
Any intelligent person with any extent of knowledge about how the kashrut industry works will recognize this statement immediately. It’s one of the classic smears. A simple meaningless smear.
I suggest you get a list of all products under the supervision of your kashrus inspector and randomly take 2 dozen products and determine what level of supervision and frequency of plant inspection. Then find equivalent products at triangle-k and do the same.
Guess what you’ll find?
1) No appreciable difference (unless your supervisor works for a chasidisher hashgacha).
2) No appreciable difference in the reliability of the product under supervision.
November 24th, 2005 at 8:47 pm
Steven I Weiss
A good reporter is someone who enlightens and clarifies his reader audience.
You sure have enlightened us with this interview, I walk away realizing things are not always the way people say it is, and just because people say so does not make it true, this simple observation is true pertaining to anything in life, but especially in the kashrus industry, and especially if it is coming from another kashrus agency or by an employer of one or many agencies, you never know their incentives , remember its a billion dollar industry.
the safest and most reliable thing is to speak to the person himself behind the symbol, and then use your own judgement if you want to eat it or not,
and if i personally wont eat it i will keep it to myself.
I also realize that the suppsed “good” supervisions are not as good as people make them to be, and the supposed “suspect” ones are not as bad as we think.
November 24th, 2005 at 9:09 pm
Sholom
You are right i was just in the supermarket and saw the ocean spray products, and pink grapefruit did not have the tri k on its label while other flavors did, i checked the ingridients and there it was: red 40.
Well after seeing that i picked up the regular cranberry juice with the tri k on it and bought it, cheers.
November 24th, 2005 at 11:35 pm
OK.. In response to teh changes at Hebrew National, I haven’t herad of any of the changes, but if he is able to have Con Agra make real Kashrus advances, even if many of us only use Glatt, then Kol HaKavod.
In terms of Ocean Spray, why is R’ Ralbag nervous about giving a Hashgacha to this newly certifiable variety, “as a precaution in case the company decides to switch back to cochneal” ?
First of all, doesn’t he have conatct with the company and contract that requires them to alert his office about changes,?
Secondly, if they change their labels to reflect an ingredient change, they would surely change a Kosher symbol at the same time.
Lastly, he told you, Shalom, that there is a “Kashering system in place after that drink before a Kosher run, and there is a masgiach (from Lakewood) going in to check up on the kashering procedures.” Does this mean, there is no Mashgiach on-site to supervise a Kashering process? Only to “check up” on the procedures? How often do they Kasher? How often does someone ‘check’ if they Kasher properly?
November 25th, 2005 at 2:40 am
1. They don’t need a mashgiach temidi for juice.
2. Why not put the Triangle K on the pink grapefruit juice? Good question. Perhaps Rabbi Ralbag is being too strict with Ocean Spray?
3. “OK.. In response to teh changes at Hebrew National, I haven’t herad of any of the changes, …”
Then you are not well informed about the kashrut business. But, hey, that’s okay – you don’t seem to be very well informed about Yoreh Dayah either.
November 25th, 2005 at 7:53 am
>I walk away realizing things are not always the way people
>say it is, and just because people say so does not make it
>true, this simple observation is true pertaining to anything
>in life, but especially in the kashrus industry
Here’s a good example of the nonsense that goes on in the kashrut induustry an a good example (for all the crazy Rabbi Mordechai Tendler supporters) of how easy it is to trick the Chief Rabbanut in Israel and get letters/psaks based on false information.
The Rabbi in this case just wanted to provide the poor in his community kosher meat for the Pesach seder. Look at what the “kashrut establishment” tried to do to him and his efforts.
1) ...
1a) Google translation:
...
2) ...
3) ...
3a) Google translation:
...
November 25th, 2005 at 4:31 pm
Sholom - thanks for following up on this. (No thanks for the “moron” attribution.) I will not publicly post the name of the individual who gave the lecture but WILL follow up with him regarding Rabbi Ralbag’s response regarding chochineal and will post here what he said. Did you also ask Rabbi Ralbag about how many inspectors Triangle-K has or uses, and if he relies on simple phone conversations with plant owners regarding prodedures? (Which is almost never sufficient from a kashrus standpoint.)
November 26th, 2005 at 8:57 pm
>Did you also ask Rabbi Ralbag about how many inspectors
>Triangle-K has or uses, and if he relies on simple phone
>conversations with plant owners regarding prodedures?
>(Which is almost never sufficient from a kashrus standpoint.)
Again, what you’re saying is meaningless without a proper example.
The proper questions:
1) Does the product need a mashgiach tmidi?
2) If not, how frequently is a mashgiach needed for inspection?
I would note that in England, the London Beth Din ( ... ) puts out a kashrut guide that lists products that are kosher supervised and kosher UNSUPERVISED. My understanding is that what you say is “almost never sufficient from a kashrus standpoint” is for many industrial produced products “more than sufficient from a kashrus standpoint”
Once you know what is being produced in a particular plant, what ingrediants are used, only then can you determine what supervision is necessary. Do you know of any actual product that has insufficient supervision that has actually led to a problem (if not what is your point)? Would increased supervision (less than a mashgiach tmidi) have made any difference?
Do you realize that virtuallly every kashrut organization puts out regular list of products that there are problems with that used to be/are under their supervision? Even with increased supervision, there are no guarantees.
What you and your lecturer are claiming is nothing more than a complete violation of shmirat halashon, a mere smear. It’s too bad that you are both more concerned with what goes in your mouths, than what comes out of your mouths.
November 26th, 2005 at 9:53 pm
jeremyb
Look at the interview it answers your questions R’ Ralbag said “some require a rabbinic representative 24 hours a day cheese grape juice etc’ others frequent visits others less frequent”
“some once a month others a few times a year”
and about masgichim, he says even about the supervisions they have in Europe “we have masgichim supervisers all over europe mars toblerone hire rabbonim, go out every month etc’”
November 26th, 2005 at 10:00 pm
Jewish wistle blowwer
did you realize that jeremyb is not just more concerned what goes in his mouth over what comes out of his mouth, but his last post was bassically written on Shabbos if he lives in the east coast!
November 27th, 2005 at 12:33 am
Shmarya -
Yes, there is no need for a Temidi for juice, but there would be a need for a Mashgiach to supervise a Kashering.
If R’ Ralbag is being to strict with Ocean Spray, then this may be a first.
Yes, Tr-K does employ numerous Mashgichim across the globe, nobody disputes that, the question is, do they employ enough of them, and do they visit some of the plants often enough.
November 27th, 2005 at 12:45 am
>the question is, do they employ enough of them, and do they
>visit some of the plants often enough.
2 questions which you have still shown no factual basis for.
November 27th, 2005 at 12:52 am
Kashrus Guy
I was a masgiach for one of the big supervisions (no i will not disclose the name) and many times the policy was from the top to either be by the kashering itself or come in after the kashering and look up the official documented charts that verify cip which basicly is the kashering procedure. this is something that is recorded to the degree and cant be changed or played around with, and can be checked and verified any time i came in i would have access to all the charts and all their productions on all the lines and see that there was a kashering.
(especially if its a big national company) these charts are kept stored sometimes for years in these facilities.
There is no need for a jew to cook up the water of the kashering, it just has to be verified and made sure it was inforced , in all my years never did i come across such a error, eventho i have come across other mistakes but the kashering is one of the most simplest of them all. these are standard procedures in such companies.
November 27th, 2005 at 1:02 am
Kashrus Guy
“employing enough mashgichim and visiting the plants often enough” have no basis in halacha, either it needs a temidi or yotzeh venichnas is enough, because of the mirtat, the only ramifications are supporting the parnossah of more jews with greater salaries, a mitzvah indeed, but nothing to do with kosher.
November 27th, 2005 at 12:43 pm
yes, I have spoken with him and his father over many years and they do tell how frequently, or infrequently, their Mashgichim visit some plants.
Call and ask him if and when they visit the vegatable and fruit canning facilities in Guam?
Also, you don’t seem to comment on why they wouldnt have a Mashgiach supervise a Kashering.
Ask why they do not require companies to put their Tri-K logo on many of their certified products, although many more do now. They claim it is ‘just in case’ the product doesn’t stay Kosher, and they can’t possibly control what the company does. Haven’t they heard of a contract? That would help, yes, I know that nothing perfect, maintain control over the products they certify. It works well for the Star-K, Kof-K, and OU (I believe the OK doesn’t use contracts seither, but does threaten to sue any company against using pacakging with its symbol if they are out of step.)
So yes, JWB, I do have very good information on how they run their business and they systems they employ.
November 27th, 2005 at 1:02 pm
>Call and ask him if and when they visit the vegatable
>and fruit canning facilities in Guam?
1) Does it even need to be supervised?
2) How many times does he visit it?
3) How many times do you think he needs to visit it?
4) Give me examples of similar plants under other kashrut bodies and the number of times they visit.
5) Why is 3 or 4 better than 2?
>Also, you don’t seem to comment on why they wouldnt
>have a Mashgiach supervise a Kashering.
You have to be more specific.
1) What product are you talking about?
2) What type of “kashering” is done and why?
3) Give me examples of similar plants with similar products under other kashrut bodies and the procedures they have for similar “kashering”.
4) Why is 3 better than 2?
>Ask why they do not require companies to put their Tri-K
>logo on many of their certified products, although many
>more do now. They claim it is ‘just in case’ the product
>doesn’t stay Kosher, and they can’t possibly control what
>the company does.
The Beth Din of London is similar. You need to consult a list instead of looking for symbols on products.
>Haven’t they heard of a contract?
>That would help, yes, I know that nothing perfect, maintain
>control over the products they certify.
They have contracts.
>It works well for the Star-K, Kof-K, and OU (I believe
>the OK doesn’t use contracts seither, but does
>threaten to sue any company against using pacakging
>with its symbol if they are out of step.)
I’m sure OK has contracts just as the Beth Din of London has.
>So yes, JWB, I do have very good information on how
>they run their business and they systems they employ.
So far that claim is undemonstrated.
November 27th, 2005 at 1:16 pm
Kosher Guy:
>Also, you don’t seem to comment on why they wouldnt
>have a Mashgiach supervise a Kashering.
Sholom:
>He also told me there is a Kashering system in place after
>that drink before a Kosher run, and there is a masgiach
>(from Lakewood) going in to check up on the kashering
>procedures.
I think you are referring to the ocean spray drinks.
Based on the above:
1) I’m not clear what the “kashering system” referred to is. I suspect it may be an automatic process as part of the run with no human physical contact. As such, why would anyone need to be there?
2) Is there anything run on the machinery that requires any “kashering” afterwards?
3) Again, you have not indicated what the problem is, demonstrated how it is done any diffrently by any other kashrut organization or shown that halachically it is necessary.
November 27th, 2005 at 1:55 pm
And, while you’re at it Kashrus Guy, read (and process, if that is possible for you) this:
...
November 27th, 2005 at 2:13 pm
JWB –
I check out those links you posted above. Note that kosher meat is 10% more expensive in Montreal than Vancouver, even though Montreal has a much larger Orthodox population. Further, kosher meat in Montreal appers to be more expensive than in any other major city. It seems the Va’ad Ha’ir may be making a disproportionately higher amount on it supervision, thereby increasing prices …
November 27th, 2005 at 5:02 pm
>I check out those links you posted above. Note that
>kosher meat is 10% more expensive in Montreal than
>Vancouver, even though Montreal has a much larger
>Orthodox population. Further, kosher meat in Montreal
>appers to be more expensive than in any other major
>city. It seems the Va’ad Ha’ir may be making a
>disproportionately higher amount on it supervision,
>thereby increasing prices …
Shmarya, while the study appears interesting, I would have to read it to express more of an opinion.
The problem off the top of my head is:
1) Vancouver does not have local schita and has not had for a long time. Meat I believe is imported primarily from Seattle.
2) Montreal has had several facilities go under recently (Levitts, Chai) but still has local schita.
3) All 3 major kashrut organizations (COR, MK and BCK) in Canada are private for profit (I believe that is factual but will double check) so there is no way to determine much. The claim in the article that one organization gives all its profits to a non-profit company is meaningless. Is the profit after 6 or 7-figure salaries (and expense accounts) by the partners? There is no way to know. As such it remains a for profit private company. My position is that kashrut organizations must have open books.
4) The kosher meat industry has reorganized substantially in the past few years due to mad cow disease and the resulting border restrictions. Most of the kosher supply of meat that is used in NY state has shifted from Canadian sources to Illinois (there has been little schita done in NY state for some time).
All of these financial factors need to be taken into account to understand the industry and prices in any given area.
But you’ll find in general disproportionately higher meat prices and profits at the supervising kashrut agency level, when the costs are not public. Clearly, this Rabbi who did schita at cost (everything public) to provide meat for the poor in the community, demonstrates that Kashrut can still be done as a community service and that the meat schechted can cost substantially less. It also demonstrated how far organized kashrut will go to smear people providing such low cost and “open book” services.
November 27th, 2005 at 5:05 pm
Correctiom: Marvid not Chai went under (I had a few posts last year about the strike by union workers).