Getting Kosher Going Again
I promised when I first got Canonist going again after the server outage that I’d be producing some reporting on the kosher supervision industry.
I kind of got lost on that story, but current events offer a great opportunity to get back into it. Over the next week or so, I hope to provide a lot of my reporting in posts at Canonist and Kosher Bachelor, toward an article I’m writing for Radar.
Most obviously, there’s Kosher Fest, which I hope to attend today.
As well, there are two interesting posts over at Jewschool, coming from essentially opposite ends of the kosher-supervision credibility spectrum.
First, L’chayim wrote about the kosher certification of Coca-Cola, something that developed in the 1930s when a local rabbi asked the company to change certain ingredients and then certified that the product was kosher. He writes:
Coke originally had a derivative of beef tallow in it! People, know what you put in your mouth. That’s part of what keeping kosher is all about.
[…]
Around 1990, about 20 years after Rabbi Geffen’s death, there was a bit of a scandal after the Jewish population realized that there was no one certifying Coca Cola as kosher anymore but we were all drinking it anyway. What if they decided to put back in the beef tallow glycerine or something else? In 1991, the OU took over certification of Coke, at least in North America.
As to that latter assertion, it’s not entirely true. One of the bigger stories about kosher supervision that’s been little told is how the Orthodox Union gained the contract to certify Coca-Cola as kosher. The issue wasn’t one of going from no certification to the OU, but of going from the certification of the Triangle K under Rabbi Jehoseph Ralbag. I interviewed people at both the OU and Triangle K in my first round of reporting, but failed to get into this issue. But there’s a lot more to it, certainly, than L’chayim says.
But there are further questions to ask about L’chayim’s post in light of the criticisms of Rabbi Yitzchok Abadi. Would a derivative of non-kosher beef tallow really render a product unkosher? How and why — and according to whom? Under contemporary assumptions about kosher in the Orthodox community, such questions are stupid, because the answer’s supposed to be an obvious no. But when we peel back the historical layers of understanding the kosher situation five, ten, twenty, fifty or a hundred years, we find a very different world, as regards many questions relating to kosher.
Moreso, are such concerns really of the present-day? How often is glycerine produced from beef tallow, as opposed to other means? And would one be able to tell whether that was the case from a food label?
The second Jewschool post comes from DeityBox, who touts Abadi’s recent declaration that Cinn-a-Bons are kosher. Her presentation, too, earns a lot of criticism. To be precise:
1) Abadi’s statement here applies only to the packaged Cinn-a-Bon items that you can buy at a grocery store, not to those sold fresh at restaurant-type establishments.
2) Anyone who’d been following the kosher supervision agencies’ definitions all along could have eaten these products. They’ve been certified kosher for quite some time (indeed, my reporting on Kosherfest from last year, now lost with the rest of the KosherBachelor archives, discussed this item). In this case, it was one of Abadi’s being more stringent than the kosher supervision agencies (in which he asserted that the agencies’ assumptions about cheese might be off) over a period of time that kept him from declaring the products kosher.
3) This is more just an extension of 2, but there are plenty of products that kosher supervision agencies say are kosher to which Abadi replies that they’re not. It’s important to understand these differences in philosophy, that they may be evaluated on their own grounds, instead of some corporate vs. the public breakdown.
(Crossposted)
November 15th, 2005 at 11:18 am
Keep in mind that agencies that serve the entire community have to perform a balancing act. They want to benefit as many memebers of the community as possible. That means trying to create standards that reflect as many sub-communities as possible without alienating others or increasing costs overmuch.
Rabbi Abadi does not represent the mainstream views. That’s pretty clear.
See the original Coca Cola responsum where Rabbi Geffen raises the issue of the producers intentionally adding a forbidden ingredient to be nullified in mixture. It is a matter of dispute whether this is permissible, even if the producers are not Jewish. It revolves around the concept of “ein mevatlin issur lekhat’hilah — one does not nullify a forbidden ingredient ab initio.” Everyone agrees that this concept is binding, the question is exactly how to apply it in industrial circumstances. When a non-Jewish company does it for a largely non-Jewish clientele, does this concept apply? This was debated in the NINETEENTH century and the general consensus was that it does apply, which is why the fact that Coca Cola’s non-kosher ingredient is less than 1/60th of the mixture is irrelevant to the mainstream. But not everyone follows that consensus, or they determine the consensus differently.
I believe the issue of derivatives from non-kosher ingredients ties into the major debate over gelatin. The general consensus in the US was to prohibit it.
Bottom line, I would not be allowed to drink Coca Cola if it had a small portion of a derivative from a non-kosher ingredient that was intentionally added to it, Rabbi Abadi notwithstanding. And I believe that most of the observant Jewish community would be likewise limited.
As to where the glycerine comes from, that is a matter that is easily determined by consulting with the companies.
November 15th, 2005 at 11:32 am
>(indeed, my reporting on Kosherfest from last year, now
>lost with the rest of the KosherBachelor archives, discussed
>this item).
Most of it is available cached in google.
...
Or more generally:
...
November 15th, 2005 at 11:52 am
huh?
November 15th, 2005 at 12:04 pm
Kashrut today is a big business with millions of dollars in supervision fees. Unfortunately, it has less and less to do with halacha and more and more to do with convincing you that the supervising agencies standards are high, that their hechsher can be trusted and that others can’t be. Part of their operations involve convincing people that people that many of the products that they simply purchased without any supervision for thousands of years now need supervision (orange juice, water, fish, many vegtables and soon more vegtables and likely fruits soon as well).
Huge area to throw out questions and issues (I’ll just note a few here)
What exactly are the basic standards?
What is this “higher standard” that many kashrut bodies claim and is their any limit to the stringencies that can be added to such standards?
The differing supervision standards between retail and commercial establishments.
When is a mashgiach nihnas v’yozeh vs. a mashgiach timidi needed? Does the consumer even appreciate what level of supervision various products have?
Why do products have multiple kosher symbols? Do they often just pay an additional fee while one supervising agency relies on the mashgiah/supervision of the other agency?
Why historically and when did the modern organized supervising agencies emerge? Why? What was the imperitive then? What is it now?
What does Glatt mean today, what standards are used? How prevalent was it a few centuries ago?
Bishul Yisroel and Pas Yisroel what are the various standards kashrut agencies use (ie: pilot light sufficient?), do consumers appreciate that there are various standards?
The changing standards, do people even notice how much things have changed ove the past decades? Was it necessary?
Transparency and accountability? Why are so few kashrut organizations open?
What happened to bitul, b’dieved and distinctions between commercially produced products and privately produced products (re non Jews in the Kashrut world)?
Reliance on government standards within the Kashrut world.
Foods made with proteins derived from human hair (from India of course!) when will it become an even bigger issue (you all know it will)?
November 15th, 2005 at 12:55 pm
JW, you have no evidence to back up your ignorant claims and your obviously have zero appreciation for the magnitude of importance placed on supervisors who have people relying on them for accuracy.
November 15th, 2005 at 1:23 pm
>JW, you have no evidence to back up your ignorant claims
Could you specify which claims and elaborate?
>and your obviously have zero appreciation for the
>magnitude of importance placed on supervisors who
>have people relying on them for accuracy.
I’m not sure what you are talking about. Perhaps once again you could elaborate.
It is difficult to respond to you as you have not made any statements of any substance I can respond to.
November 15th, 2005 at 1:30 pm
I would note that the kosher consumer appears to be increasingly ignorant and that seems to be the trend that at least I’m observing.
Decades ago consumers read labels, bought fish by inspecting for the simonim, today many simply rely on symbols and supervision to make such purchases.
Don’t even get me started on the need today for all products to have a Kosher L’Pesach designation whereas decades ago consumers used certain products without such designation as they were aware it was not necessary (pure 100% squeezed orange juice).
November 15th, 2005 at 1:33 pm
TC
It is you who don’t know what you are talking about. As someone who has beein privy to the inside workings of kashrut supervisory agencies, I can tell you that much of what takes place is not based on halakhah, but on public policy as they define it.. Also, many kashrut organizations have to please even the most extreme segments of our community.
As for what Gil Student writes, I think he is mistaken. Most poskim hold that if the Gentile puts the non-kosher material in as part of the process, it is still OK. I know that this is a machloket, but from learning Yoreh Deah I think that most poskim hold this position. See
...
and
...
What all this shows you is that you have to find a rav and hold like him. But R. Moshe Feinstein ruled that you could rely on the word of a companyto determine if food was kosher. That still is the standard in Europe. But in the U.S., that’s no longer acceptable and some people won’t even trust Ralbag on orange juice (he is a frum rabbi — can’t we assume that if he tells us there is no meat in the juice that he isn’t lying .. . )
Note that R. Ovadiah Yosef, the world’s leading posek, has no problem with gelatin, carmine etc. How long before that becomes the mainstream view again. Before the 1950’s, gelatin was accepted in the U.S. and is still accepted in Israel.
Also, Steve, I don’t know if you are correct re. Cinnabon. Abadi holds that you can eat Krispy Kreme donuts even at the local gas station, not only in the supermarket sealed package. Should it be the same with Cinnabon?
By the way, why hasn’t kashrut.org published in a long time?
November 15th, 2005 at 1:36 pm
>and your obviously have zero appreciation for the
>magnitude of importance placed on supervisors who
>have people relying on them for accuracy.
To the contrary, part of my point was that the typical Kosher consumer does not appreciate, understand or comprehend the level of supervision that is often used at various premises and for various products/processes.
For example, does “Bishul Yisrael” mean a frum Jew physically cooked the item or that a mashgiach lit the pilot light 12 months ago (which has not gone out since)?
Do you know as a consumer which standard is being applied and does it matter to you and if not why?
November 15th, 2005 at 1:38 pm
“Kashrut today is a big business with millions of dollars in supervision fees. Unfortunately, it has less and less to do with halacha and more and more to do with convincing you that the supervising agencies standards are high, that their hechsher can be trusted and that others can’t be.”
Speaking of no substance…
November 15th, 2005 at 1:44 pm
TTC perhaps you could enlighten us as a Kosher consumer as to the various standards being used in your community, the level of supervision etc.
If schita is done in your area what % of beef slaughtered meets Glatt standards?
Enlighten us please.
I’ve been told that approximately 20% of beef slaughtered ends up going to the Glatt consumer.
Original= 100%
50% front, 50% hind
40% of animals slaughtered make the Glatt grade (whatever that standard now is)
So 50% X 40% = 20% ends up going to the Glatt consumer
80% to the non-kosher and non-glatt market
Anyone have different numbers?
November 15th, 2005 at 1:50 pm
Please elaborate:
1) “Kashrut today is a big business with millions of dollars in supervision
fees.
Are uou disagreeing?
2) Unfortunately, it has less and less to do with halacha
Bottled water and orange juice need supervision? A mashgiach temidi?
Please elaborate.
3) and more and more to do with convincing you that the supervising agencies standards are high, that their hechsher can be trusted
They don’t?
4) and that others can’t be.�
They don’t?
Responding to your lack of substance is difficult.
November 15th, 2005 at 1:56 pm
Maybe you can find out what the story is with grape juice (Welch’s etc.). Abadi claims that all grape juice in the U.S. is mevushal, and therefore we can drink all grape juice (when I as young we drank Welch’s). If this is so — and I assume they looked into it — then we should all buy Welch’s for Shabbat
November 15th, 2005 at 3:23 pm
Most of the major kashrus organizations use standards that most of the people in my community would not allow in their own kitchens. These are legitimate leniencies, but not ones we would feel comfortable using on our own.
In general, though, a lot of kashrus supervision revolves around practical issues over which reasonable people can differ. Not to mention the hundreds of minor issues that require halakhic decision-making over which, again, reasonable people can differ.
As to JWB’s specific points, gimme a break. First establish that bottled water is actually supervised before asking about its propriety.
Steve: If you are interviewing people, try getting in touch with someone from the KIC in Brooklyn (I think, Kashrus Information Center or something like that).
November 15th, 2005 at 3:31 pm
>As to JWB’s specific points, gimme a break. First
>establish that bottled water is actually supervised
>before asking about its propriety.
1)
Gil you miss my point. I doubt there is any mashgiach at any bottled water plant. Certainly not a mahgiach temidi and probably not even a mashgiach nichnas vyozeh. If so why does such a product need a kashrut symbol on it? Does the average kosher consumer believe the product has some level of supervision because of the appearance of such a symbol?
2)
...
…14. IROQUOIS WATER LTD.-CORNWALL ISLAND, ON CANADA K6H5R7
Brand: AKWA
Natural Spring Water OU
Brand: IROQUOIS WATER
Natural Spring Water OU
…
November 15th, 2005 at 3:50 pm
My understanding is that the companies approached the OU and requested kosher designation.
November 16th, 2005 at 3:47 am
>My understanding is that the companies approached
>the OU and requested kosher designation.
I’m sure you are correct. But why did they approach the OU for that designation and why did the OU charge them a fee and give it to them?
And why are there so many bottled waters with kashrut symbols?
And while we are at it, how about products like laundry detergents, tidy bowl cleaner, bathroom pucks and other such products that have kosher symbols that are Pagum to the degree that they becomes Nifsal Me’Achilas Kelev?
But why rely on any legitimate leniancy when you can have some magical “higher standard” better then your competitors?
...
...
...
November 16th, 2005 at 4:45 am
>Maybe you can find out what the story is with grape
>juice (Welch’s etc.). Abadi claims that all grape juice
>in the U.S. is mevushal, and therefore we can drink
>all grape juice (when I as young we drank Welch’s).
>If this is so — and I assume they looked into it — then
>we should all buy Welch’s for Shabbat
The problem is that as Gil indicated anyone relying on any long time recognized halacha with regard to kashrut that involves leniancies or more leniant shitot “does not represent the mainstream views. That’s pretty clear.” Non-Glatt meat for example used to be mainstream when people would have starved with such standards (imagine you buy an animal to shecht with all your money in order to feed your family and you have a less than 50% chance it will meet Glatt standards). Today mainstream is Glatt, even though the Glatt standards today are frankly not very clear. And of course a Glatt standard is appropriate today as more expensive meat (a lower rate of meat shechted will be accepted) makes sense as we have all been so strigent with all the the ben adom v’adom laws (as stringent as we are with Kashrut today) that we have managed to eliminate poverty in the frum community (please read with the appropriate level of sarcasm).
...
“sometimes only one in twenty animals will be truly glatt kosher”
Can anyone confirm any such rate? It would mean that 2.5% of schechted meat would meet Glatt standards (half the animal is the hind, so half of 5%). I’ve noted above, that my understanding is that 20% is the accurate rate in most places. Is this 2.5% rate a mere “puff” to convince us the Glatt standard is even higher than it really is?
I believe Abadi is for the most part correct but of course it is not so simple. There are two main shitot as to the requirements for mevushal. As such some meet the more leniant standard of 1) Rav Feinstein and others meet the standard required by the 2) Tzelihmer Rav. There are indeed now grape juices that do meet either standard as newer technologies allow pasteurization at lower temperatures.
Kedem has grape juices that:
a. meet the standards of 1) and 2)
b. meet the standard of 1) only
c. meet neither standard and are not mevushal
Of course with non-mevushal wines/grape juices, there are all sorts of halachic problems, particularly with groups that treat non-frum Jews as non-Jews when it comes to halachot related to handling non-mevushal wines(similar problem with Bishul Yisrael laws). It makes it particularly hard to serve non-mevushal grape juice at an event where non-frum relatives will attend, like a seder.
November 16th, 2005 at 10:32 am
Bottled Water:
... - Search by: bottled water
Category: Water
Brandname Product Symbol Company Type
1) Carolina Mountain Water Bottled Water OU-P Carolina Mountain Water Consumer
2) Crystal Rock Bottled Water OU Crystal Rock Water Co. Consumer
3) Leisure Time Bottled Water OU Leisure Time Spring Water Consumer
4) Silver Springs Natural Drinking Water OU Silver Springs Bottled Water Consumer
5) Silver Springs Steam Distilled Water OU Silver Springs Bottled Water Consumer
6) Silver Springs Spring Water OU Silver Springs Bottled Water Consumer
Which leads to the obvious (I hope) question, why is only #1 kosher for Pesach?
November 16th, 2005 at 10:44 am
Hydrochloric Acid:
... - Search by: Hydrochloric
Category: Acids & Acidulants
Brandname Product Symbol Company Type
1) G.S. Robins Hydrochloric Acid OU G. S. Robins & Company Industrial
2) Jones-Hamilton Hydrochloric Acid OU Jones-Hamilton Industrial
Category: Chemical Products
Brandname Product Symbol Company Type
3) PCI Chemical Hydrochloric Acid OU Pioneer Americas LLC Industrial
4) PPG Hydrochloric Acid OU PPG Industries Industrial
5) Rotem Amfert Negev Hydrochloric Acid (HCL) OU Rotem Amfert Negev LTD. Industrial
Category: Dairy Products
Brandname Product Symbol Company Type
6) Murray Goulburn #1867 Hydrochloric Acid Casein (Plant # 1867) OU-D Murray Goulburn Cooperative Co. Limited
Where to even start with this one … does anyone even realize what hydrocloric acid is? Ever tried to consume it? If you’re answering my rhetorical question, the answer is no. Anyone require a chassidisher certification for their hydrochloric acid needs? At least none of these products have a P for Pesach on their certification.
November 16th, 2005 at 10:46 am
water has been transported in big tankers that are used for other things like transporting lard. if it’s in there for 24 hrs then its kavush kmvushal and treif - or if it’s pasteurized on equipment that pasteurizes treifus=problems. I asked my LOR who said only drink water with a hechsher but if yours said it was OK for you - b’teyavon
so mock all you want but I thank G-d for kashrus agencies that make life livable all over the U.S.
November 16th, 2005 at 10:49 am
Steel and steel cleaners:
... - Search by: Steel
Category: Cleansers & Detergents
Brandname Product Symbol Company Type
1) Cavalier Chemical Radiance Stainless Steel/4145jd OU Cavalier Chemical Co. Industrial
2) Starco Stainless Steel Cleaner OU Diamond Chemical Company Industrial
3) Epic Swell Stainless Steel Cleaner 415-1306 OU Epic Industries Industrial
4) Kleen King Stainless Steel & Copper Cleaner OU Faultless Starch/Bon Ami Co. Consumer
5) Kleen King Stainless Steel And Copper Cleaner For Pots And Pans OU Faultless Starch/Bon Ami Co. Consumer
6) Kleen King Stainless Steel And Copper Cleaner Fresh Lemon Scent OU Faultless Starch/Bon Ami Co. Consumer
7) Twinkle Stainless Steel Cleaner & Polish OU JohnsonDiversey Industrial
8) JohnsonDiversey D-7 Stainless Steel Polish OU JohnsonDiversey Industrial
9) Goddard’s Stainless Steel Cleaner OU Northern Labs, Inc. Industrial
10) Orchem Miller Stainless Steel Caustic Cleaner Liquid OU Orchem Corporation Industrial
11) Rokeach Steel Wool Soap Pads OU-P Rokeach Food Co. Consumer
12) U.N.X. Stainless Steel Cleaner (Housekeeping) OU U.N.X. Chemicals, Inc. Industrial
13) Hagerty Stainless Steel Wash OU W.J. Hagerty & Sons, Inc. Consumer
14) Hagerty Stainless Steel Polish OU W.J. Hagerty & Sons, Inc. Consumer
15) Whirlpool Stainless Steel Cleanser & Polish OU Whirlpool Corporation
Again, where to even start with this one … #11 is kosher l’Pesach, what about the others.
November 16th, 2005 at 10:52 am
Toilet Bowl Cleaner:
... - Search by: Toilet
Category: Cleansers & Detergents
Brandname Product Symbol Company Type
1) Seventh Generation Natural Toilet Bowl Cleaner OU Seventh Generation Consumer
No commentary from me necessary.
November 16th, 2005 at 10:57 am
>water has been transported in big tankers that are used
>for other things like transporting lard.
Please provide any evidence of this. This sounds like nonsense to me.
>if it’s in there for 24 hrs then its kavush kmvushal and
>treif - or if it’s pasteurized on equipment that pasteurizes
>treifus=problems. I asked my LOR who said only drink
>water with a hechsher but if yours said it was OK for
>you - b’teyavon
I hear that the people at the tap water plants sometimes eat ham sandwithches while working, better stay away from tap water.
>so mock all you want but I thank G-d for kashrus
>agencies that make life livable all over the U.S.
And convince us that water needs a hechsher.
November 16th, 2005 at 11:04 am
Anecdotally, I can report that geffen, an agudas haRabbonim member, and the symbol of “charedi” Orthodoxy in Atlanta, gave a hechsher to a butcher shop which was selling rationed, non kosher livers as kosher. When confronted, Geffen did nothing. His opinions are tainted.
His children and grandchildren are identified with Conservative Judaism. The use of his responsa and opinions are limited.
November 16th, 2005 at 11:05 am
Laundry Detergents:
... - Search by: Laundry
Category: Cleansers & Detergents
Brandname Product Symbol Company Type
1) Tops Guarantee Value - Low Suds Ultra Powder Laundry Detergents OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
2) Bi-Lo Guarantee Value - Low Suds Ultra Powder Laundry Detergents OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
3) Stop & Shop Liquid Ultra Laundry Detrgnt with Bleach Alternative OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
4) Guaranteed Value Liquid Ultra Heavy Duty Laundry Detergent OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
5) Bi-Lo Pure Power - High Suds Ultra Powder Laundry Detergents OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
6) Giant Heavy Duty Laundry Detergent - Regular OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
7) Guaranteed Value Liquid Ultra Laundry Detrgnt with Bleach Alternative OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
8) Guaranteed Value Mountain Scent Heavy Duty Laundry Detergent OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
9) Bi-Lo Pure Power - Heavy Duty Ultra Liquid Laundry Detergents OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
10) Giant Heavy Duty Laundry Detergent-Free ‘N Clear OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
11) Tops Heavy Duty Laundry Detergent with Bleach Alternative OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
12) Stop & Shop Liquid Ultra Heavy Duty Laundry Detergent OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
13) Stop & Shop Guarantee Value - Low Suds Ultra Powder Laundry Detergents OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
14) Tops Pure Power - Heavy Duty Ultra Liquid Laundry Detergents OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
15) Tops Heavy Duty Laundry Detergent-Free ‘N Clear OU Ahold USA, Inc. Consumer
…
(There are hundreds more)
Do I need three washing machines (for my pareve, milchig and fleishig tableclothes) or can I run a few empty loads between washing my michig and feishig meal clothes?
November 16th, 2005 at 11:13 am
>water has been transported in big tankers that are
>used for other things like transporting lard.
Do they use the same tanks for Hydrochloric Acid and laudry detergents?
November 16th, 2005 at 11:24 am
>water has been transported in big tankers that are
>used for other things like transporting lard.
Seriously, I doubt such tankers carry water, but they may carry other products.
For the longest time we relied on halchot like bittul to deal with such problems. But of course, we now have the golden “higher standard”. How we have advanced or at least convinced the kosher consumer of the “problem” and the necessity of new forms of supervision.
1) ...
and
2) ...
November 16th, 2005 at 11:41 am
Listing many of the tank cleaning services that have kosher certification. This is a relativly new development in kashrut that started a few decades ago.
...
November 16th, 2005 at 12:19 pm
Banning vegtables
...
Banned by the MK Vaad Hair:
Brussels Sprouts
Heart of Artichoke
Blackberries
Fresh cauliflower
Chicory
Fresh dill
Edible Flowers
Fresh oregano
Raspberries
Fresh spinach
November 16th, 2005 at 12:35 pm
jwb, so eat treif - who cares. I care about my soul. Now I know why so much treifus comes out of you - what goes in must come out
btw, mazal tov on getting semicha and being able to pasken kashrus shailos.
November 16th, 2005 at 12:41 pm
>jwb, so eat treif
Where did that come from?
> - who cares.
Kol Yisrael areivim z’eh l’zeh?
>I care about my soul.
>Now I know why so much treifus
>comes out of you - what goes in
>must come out
For the record, I don’t eat treifus.
I have used non-certified toilet bowl cleaner.
>btw, mazal tov on getting semicha
>and being able to pasken kashrus shailos.
I don’t believe I’m paskening here. No such claim has ever been by me.
November 16th, 2005 at 12:47 pm
Anon, do I need Yoreh Yoreh or Yadin Yadin to comment on kosher certification of hydochloric acid, laundry detergent, bottled water and toilet cleaner?
November 16th, 2005 at 2:04 pm
yes you do. but intelligence would suffice.
November 16th, 2005 at 2:16 pm
The Hamodia magazine section has an article every week called kashrus kaleidascope explaining different issues in kashrus and how they avoid them. I’m sure the ou can send you a list of why they do these things.
The real reason all these things have hechsherim, of course, is that it’s part of the Jew Tax levied by those nefarious Jews to run the world. This is what JWB is alluding to. This is the answer I saw on ukar.org, the infamous Anti-Semitic website.
November 16th, 2005 at 2:29 pm
>yes you do. but intelligence would suffice.
As always, if you can point out where I am wrong in my logic, I can discuss it but it is difficult to respond when you post nothing of substance, again.
November 16th, 2005 at 2:37 pm
JWB: You are too prolific for me to respond in detail. Let me just point out that you should feel morally obligated to ask someone knowledgable in the OU about these issues before you imply wrongdoing on their part. And by “morally obligated,” I mean by halakhic, journalistic and secular-ethical standards. These are not unreasonable people and as long as you don’t act like you’re out to get them, you’ll receive fair answers.
On my blog, I include a link above the hit counter to the OU’s Ask the Rabbi function and a phone number. Why not use them?
...
November 16th, 2005 at 3:03 pm
>JWB: You are too prolific for me to respond in detail.
Huh?
>Let me just point out that you should feel morally
>obligated to ask someone knowledgable in the OU
>about these issues before you imply wrongdoing on
>their part.
I’m not implying wrongdoing, I just am indicating how ridiculous aspects of the Kashrut industry have become. This may be the result of several factors including requirements as part of contracts that products be kosher certified if they are to be used in a larger process (even when logic and halacha dictates that it is not necessary). While there may be no wrongdoing (everyone is entitled to enter these certification contracts freely), I do believe that this industry that now certifies hydrochloric acid and toilet cleaner is out of control and needs to look at why we are at this point before it even gets more ridiculous and more importantly if allowing such kosher symbols on such products brings disrepute to the industry and misinformation to the consumer.
>And by “morally obligated,� I mean by halakhic, journalistic
>and secular-ethical standards. These are not unreasonable
>people and as long as you don’t act like you’re out to get
>them, you’ll receive fair answers.
>
>On my blog, I include a link above the hit counter to the
>OU’s Ask the Rabbi function and a phone number. Why
> not use them?
>…
I have made inquiries on many of thee issues and feel I have sufficient information to raise these issues. Again, I don’t believe I’ve accused anyone of wrongdoing, I’ve just pointed out that the Kashrut industry is getting into some silliness and maybe it’s time we discuss these issues and start educating the consumer (which I believe is the major reason for alot of this nonsense, ignorance). For the most part, I believe I’ve simply raised issues and given some legitimate examples for discussion. I could probably give you a long rant and rave giving answers to why these problems exist and what I believe is the case, instead I’ve simply opened the floor to discussion …. with little resulting discussion.
November 16th, 2005 at 3:35 pm
...
“…He noticed the problem of boats or iso-tankers transporting products. The transports needed to be regulated, as sometimes the tankers would also carry lard, tallow, non-kosher refined glycerin or fatty acids, refined glycerin, wine or non-kosher alcohol. Rabbi Levy introduced a system for monitoring these tankers, which the OK continues to enhance to this day.”
The transporting of spring/mineral water in such tankers has not yet been proven.
November 16th, 2005 at 3:48 pm
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“Our spring water is … pumped into a stainless steel tanker used exclusively for transporting spring water…”
I really wonder which bottled water companies are not getting kosher certification because they use lard tankers. Is there a major bottled water company that is not certified at this point? The fact that so many ARE certified makes me question how much truth there is to the notion that water is among the products transported in these things, or if it’s just another “scare tactic”. I mean, seriously, who wants water that was shipped in tankers formerly used for lard?
November 16th, 2005 at 4:08 pm
>I really wonder which bottled water companies are not
>getting kosher certification because they use lard tankers.
>Is there a major bottled water company that is not
>certified at this point? The fact that so many ARE certified
>makes me question how much truth there is to the notion
>that water is among the products transported in these
>things, or if it’s just another “scare tactic�. I mean,
>seriously, who wants water that was shipped in tankers
>formerly used for lard?
I suspect that lard tankers are not used to transport drinking water (at least for human consumption). I further suspect that if they did it would be a violation of some government regulation.
If such tankers were used, I suspect that sufficient cleaning would be necessary. Such cleaning, while not perfect, would likely be sufficient to rely on bitul. I very much doubt you would be able to “taste” the lard in the drinking water. But as an aside, if you open a bottle of water and it smells bad, looks dirty or tastes bad, do not continue drinking.
November 16th, 2005 at 4:14 pm
There are certainly government regulations regarding the transport of water.
... assistance/sectors/notebooks/watersctp1.pdf
November 16th, 2005 at 4:28 pm
From OU site
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“Corn syrup, sucrose, chocolate, cocoa butter, vegetable oil, glycerin or fatty acids, vinegar, wine, various juices, and other liquids are also transported vast distances in this country, usually in trailers.”
You would think if something as basic as water was being transporting in this problematic way, the author would say so.
(Could still be wrong…but it’s getting less likely…)
November 16th, 2005 at 5:57 pm
>If such tankers were used, I suspect that sufficient cleaning would be
> necessary. Such cleaning, while not perfect, would likely be sufficient to
> rely on bitul. I very much doubt you would be able to “taste� the lard in > the drinking water. But as an aside, if you open a bottle of water and it
> smells bad, looks dirty or tastes bad, do not continue drinking.
JWB, you are paskening like the Rema or the Shulchan Aruch or who pray tell except Rabbi Bittul.
November 16th, 2005 at 8:25 pm
Anon, how do you think they make your stainless steel pots and cutlery?
How do you think they get molten steel to move down conveyor belts when producing steel goods?
They use lubricants. Guess which one in cheap and widely used?
One of the main lubricants used is pig fat.
...
November 17th, 2005 at 9:17 am
JWB, let me guess your answer. BITUL, BITUL, BITUL and mashgiach temidi vs. nichnas v’yotze. (I have now included the extent of your halachic knowledge in my post)
November 17th, 2005 at 10:19 am
I just want to know on what halachic basis you use your pots, pans and cutlery if the steel in them was made using pig fat?
November 17th, 2005 at 10:49 am
I’ll ask my LOR. But, and note I KNOW I am ignorant and this is just a guess, but it’s a davar hapogem and with Nat bar nat it’s not a problem in the pots themselves. Food would of course be different - since you couldn’t have nat bar nat.
November 17th, 2005 at 10:50 am
JWB, please note I have added two new halachic words that you can throw around all of your posts. Nat bar nat and davar hapogem. Use them well!
November 17th, 2005 at 1:22 pm
Coca-Cola was under hashgachah in the post-Geffen period…I don’t recall specifically by whom, or which “organization” had the mandate, post Rabbi Gefffen’s involvement. This lasted MANY years until his retirement in the early 90’s. That precipitated a need to continue providing hashgacha and The Coca-Cola Company initially wanted to engage Triangle-K as Triangle-K had the mandate at the time for its Minute Maid juices. There was a huge uproar and much political posturing, boycott threats, etc. (by O-U??) which followed, including demands that Coca-Cola products not be served in synagogues. At the core, was that the formula for Coca-Cola was and is top secret, which raises difficulties (ultimately resolved) when Kashrus certification is desired. At the request of Coca-Cola senior management , a well-reputed and accomplished Rav was asked if he would mind getting involved to hopefully find a way to engage the parties and resolve the core issue to enable certification under O-U. Ultimately, this was achieved and, as far as I know, continues to this day.