“Ex-Yeshiva Head Outs Himself, Leaves Fold”
The Forward catches a story I’m quite surprised — and disappointed — to see did not turn up in the blogosphere first[UPDATE: It did. Good; wish I’d known. The full letter’s there, and I think my questions about the article still stand after reading it.], of Yeshiva of Flatbush Principal R’ Alan Stadtmauer resigning because he is gay. He stepped down in June, but seems only recently to have revealed that being gay was his primary motivation for resigning.
Reporter Jennifer Siegel does a solid job of rounding-up Orthodox leaders’ response, but I’m troubled by a few aspects of this story.
I’m most troubled by the assertion that he has abandoned Orthodoxy without speaking with him directly, citing only an “e-mail signed with the rabbi’s name” that contains the declaration “Given how alone I have been all my life, I just couldn’t see fighting an uphill battle just to remain lonely in the Orthodox community.” Siegel does include a quotation of a school administrator asserting Stadtmauer’s “no longer considered himself an Orthodox Jew,” but there’s an obvious reason to disbelieve that assertion. Siegel should either present more evidence for this claim, or acknowledge its gaps more openly.
It’s also troubling that Siegel couldn’t get her current student and alumnus quotes on the record; she doesn’t even bother to explain why they’re anonymous.
A third problem is very much not Siegel’s fault: throughout the article, you’ll see references to “rabbinic law.” This is a house style imposition from editor J.J. Goldberg, meant to get at the idea that there’s no such thing as “Jewish law,” insofar as it’s a disputed thing. But “rabbinic law” could only be said to be a somewhat-less disputed term and, moreso, its application here is about as close to precisely incorrect as it ever could be, given that the relevant law is an explicit Biblical prohibition. In this way, the phrase “rabbinic law” — especially to the exclusion of other, complementary terms — explicitly obscures a substantive understanding of the issues at hand.
Overall, this is a very interesting story, one in which I’d love to see more discussion of his career as an educator, and of his struggle. That latter presumably won’t be too easy to come by until he returns from vacation.
September 22nd, 2005 at 2:04 am
>Forward catches a story I’m quite surprised — and
>disappointed — to see did not turn up in the blogosphere
>first,
Incorrect, it broke on the blogosphere, last week in fact, you simply missed it.
...
I also received a copy of the reproduced email early last week.
September 22nd, 2005 at 2:09 am
>Overall, this is a very interesting story, one in
>which I’d love to see more discussion of his career
>as an educator, and of his struggle. That latter
>presumably won’t be too easy to come by until he
>returns from vacation.
E-mail him.
Per: Alan Stadtmauer
Write more if you’d like and feel free to stay in touch. Next Tuesday
I leave for 3 months to Asia (not Micronesia, oh well, just
Japan-Thailand-Bhutan-Cambodia-Vietnam-Hong Kong). I’m looking forward to Rosh Hashanah in Tokyo and Yom Kippur in Bangkok. While I’m away,
I’ll check e-mail every few days, so stay in touch but responses might be delayed.
September 23rd, 2005 at 12:57 am
You say,
“I’m most troubled by the assertion that he has abandoned Orthodoxy without speaking with him directly, citing only an “e-mail signed with the rabbi’s name.â€?”
The e-mail itself seems very clear, though, about abandoning Orthodoxy, as Rabbi S declares that he no longer feels bound by halacha. So the only reason to be troubled by Siegel’s assertion would be if you suspect that the e-mail itself is bogus. I can’t guarantee that it’s not, of course, but for what it’s worth, the entire Y of F community (of which I am a member) believes it is legit. As the student’s initial e-mail to the Rabbi implies, there were rumors floating about. The story I heard was that one or more of his students met the Rabbi accidentally at the beach and that he told them not to call him “Rabbi” anymore.
September 23rd, 2005 at 12:58 am
Hey JWB, isn’t this itinerary setting off alarm bells? These Asian countries are notorious for the availability of underage children for the right price. NAMBLA organizes trips to those countries regularly. I know it’s un-PC to say homosexual= pedophile, but this trip itinerary just reeks of a pedophilia trip.
September 23rd, 2005 at 7:44 am
uncle moishy - It’s not a reporter’s place to set standards for what is Orthodox or isn’t (nor, really, is it anyone else’s place). It’s unclear, from the e-mail, how Stadtmauer himself would put it, and it’s important that reporters not make those assertions without him.
No lawyer - They’re far more popular as generic vacation spots.
September 23rd, 2005 at 8:48 am
I don’t know about you guys, but Alan will be in my prayers this shabbat.
May g-d give him the stength to go on, rebuild his life and find true happiness!
Aaron
September 24th, 2005 at 10:36 pm
If Rabbi Stadtmauer agrees with Rav Tendler that one cannot claim to be orthodox and practice gay sex, he’s more honest than Steve Greenberg who wrestles.
I think he’s to be admired for stepping down from his position. He’s an honest man and a scholar. He’s choosing to freely satisfy his lust. He’s entitled to. Unfortunately, this is a terrible hillul Hashem, just before the Yamim Noraim.
But, I for one wish him well whatever he chooses, just as I wish every Jew well, gay, straight, ambi.
May he return to the fold without doubts and on whatever religious terms he chooses. It would be a shande if he chose a Conservative shul because of shame.
September 25th, 2005 at 2:49 am
Does anyone have Rabbi Stadtmauer’s email address? It’s not in the text of the email that’s been spread around.
September 25th, 2005 at 10:16 am
some benighted goody-2-shoes hand-wringing self-righteous…. wrote:
May g-d give him the stength to go on, rebuild his life and find true happiness!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
It’s highly unlikely that he will go on to happiness, as evidenced by the high rates of substance abuse, compulsive sexual promiscuity, and depression among the “out and proud”.
It is astounding to me that this man - who through his position probably had access to the best Jewish counselors - did not encounter a cogent rebuttal of the weightless pro-gay propaganda that has led him to “accept” himself as gay.
This episode betrays the unsavory tendency of Modern Orthodoxy to swallow entire the politically correct intellectual fashions of the day, with little real intellectual vetting of poses that are increasingly hostile to Torah and divorced from common sense.
September 25th, 2005 at 1:03 pm
mmmm.
lo tov heyot ha-adam levado goes the argument, counter to Divine plan. If, as Uncle Moishie says, he was caught, why not see the good? In the wake of OU scandals, as a man of integrity, I assume he protected the institution he served by leaving.
As to his inner mental state, how can anyone sit in judgement without knowing his actual thoughts. Would common sense impel him to continue living in the closet if he was afraid of being outed?
He expressed loneliness, alienation, anomie, not a desire to fulfill himself promiscuously (which he may do). I don’t believe having access to the best counselors helps anyone with pent up desires. If Modern Orthodoxy is the cause, you should bestow upon him your superior insight and da’as Toirah.
September 25th, 2005 at 3:11 pm
Modern Orthodoxy isn’t the cause - not of this man’s psychological dilemma, nor of homosexual pathology.
But a communal agenda that sanctions downplaying Torah values to show how “enlightened” we are, rather than than critical engagement of - and if necessary, disengagement from - the surrounding society? Yes, that attitude at least partially enables this man’s easy adoption of pro-gay canards. It is also is responsible for the moral drift of his students who “can understand you being gay, but what about Torah” -?!?!?!?
These are Orthodox teens?!!?!?
This is perhaps even more alarming.
September 25th, 2005 at 6:23 pm
They can understand his being gay because they deal with their own hormonal urges. Rav Moshe Feinstein has a teshuvah on homosexuality from one who claimed he had no other choice and his answer was simple and without value judgements. He identified the cause as the yetser hara, nothing more.
Rambam in Hilkhot Deot advocates abandoning society because of the very ills you identify and more, “k’mo zemaneinu,” he says. Yet, he didn’t leave, easier said than done.
These Orthodox teens, especially at more liberal institutions such as y……h of f, are easy prey to western values. Not everyone within the ghetto is actually shomer Shabbes. Social pressures keep public transgressions to a minimum, but there are gaps in our ghetto’s walls.
One would have to know who influenced A S to establish the presumption that he has come out in support of alternative lifestyles. His letter doesn’t suggest that. In the season when the Ribbono shel Olam forgives, why begrudge a fallen mumar leteiavon?
September 26th, 2005 at 11:44 am
Yet, on further introspection, I must agree that this announcement is extremely negative on the eve of a new year. Despite his positive exhortation, any doubting amos can use his example as a justification for giving in to lust and to abandoing halakhik practice.
By going public A S may have released inner demons to create more.
I feel sorry for him.
September 26th, 2005 at 11:53 am
I am a recent graduate and a former student of Rabbi Stadtmauer’s at the Yeshivah of Flatbush High School, and I have only the highest level of respect for him. When I spoke to Rabbi Stadtmauer, I was able to see the true love of god inside him, his intellect is remarkable and the knowledge he has spans all of culture and academia. I have been in touch with Rabbi Stadtmauer since this scandal has surfaced and I am happy for him that he is coming to terms with where he is in life and what he needs to do for himself. When “R” commented that us “Orthodox teens at liberal institutions” did not take much regard to Stadt’s homosexuality, it is because his personality and leadership overshadows it ten-fold. And no, “R”, we do not live in the ghetto - that is insulting. What did offend us as YOF students was the fact the Rabbi Stadtmauer is no longer Orthodox. It brings doubts to the many times he inspired us with words of god. Yet we empathize with him because he was forced into that situation due to Orthodox Judaism’s rigid rules. It is a shame that we allow criminals and adulterers to conduct themselves in society as distinguished men, but for a rabbi to be true about his lifestyle Judaism treats him like a pariah. I wish Rabbi Stadtmauer the best, and hope the homophobes in the Orthodox community can come to terms with the fact that Lashon Harah in the Torah is greatly more sinful than a man’s homosexual lifestyle.
September 26th, 2005 at 1:50 pm
I was addressing Ben D’s assertions in defense of ghettoization. No, despite the protestations of those who try to preserve autonomous communities, the ghetto walls are down.
It’s actually inspiring to see students come to the defense of their teachers, and anyone who knows AS knows he’s as kind and thoughtful as he is brilliant. No debate.
If gay marriage is considered tolerable by half the general electorate, in the context of contemporary American politics, “live and let live” may well be a viable stance, but I for one would be interested in knowing what issues A S has with rabbis. By his own admission, he no longer wishes to be called one. A man of integrity, he would not live a lie.
I’m not supporting lashon hara. I sympathize with his plight. I’m sorry he outed himself. Orthodox gays are better off in the closet. The Orthodox community has lost an excellent educator.
September 26th, 2005 at 4:58 pm
“Orthodox gays are better off in the closet.” From a communal standpoint, yes, it would be better for us frum heterosexuals if people, especailly those of Alan Stadtmauer’s stature, stayed in the closet, but from the individual’s perspective - come on. who are we to tell a person to just ignore who they are? G-d can, but I don’t believe anyone else can. I’m not justifying homosexuality in Judaism, but let’s not castigate the guy b/c of his orientation (unless you’re a gay-basher, which would be just as sad).
Furthermore 1) don’t lay the blame on MO like BD did, as the yeshiva environment of Aguda has produced as many if not more homosexuals - they certainly don’t provide any trained professionals to help kids deal with their feelings on sexuality - all they do is throw some kollel yungleit who can’t even spell psychology. ANd there is no pro-gay environment in MO - anyone who has spent time in such a community would know that it’s as virulently agianst it as the aguda world, they just put on a nicer face. 2) Part of the problem that the entire spectrum of orthodoxy lacks is a cogent response to homosexuality. we either ignore it - like what flatbush is doing now by not talking to the kids ab out it - or they just say “get some help and you’ll be re-oriented into a heterosexual”. both of these approaches are sorely lacking and completely miss the boat on the issue. the lack of sophistication in the orthodox world is pathetic and telling of a leadership that shows once again their refusal to confront issues that are real and present for their constituients.
September 26th, 2005 at 7:22 pm
You, of course, are right. The problem is the Torah.
Orthodoxy/Modern Orthodoxy are the same in principles - homosexuality, bestiality, adultery, cruelty and hillul Shabbat are equated.
Most homosexuals would probably be repulsed by bestiality. Who desires intimacy with the unique personality of an animal? In this, homosexuality is different in human terms. The problem, within Jewish ethics, is the slippery slope: when is geneivah mutar?
One approach is to redefine the issur of homosexuality as something to be seen within the context of the ancient world and idol worship. In that view, homosexuality today would be seen in a different sociological context. But, as a wise man once observed, “is sociology integral to Halakhah?”
September 28th, 2005 at 1:35 pm
All these posts from “straight” people are somewhat amusing and informative to those of us in the Orthogay community.
It’s gratifying to see that Rabbi S is not roundly condemned by most of the posters for his “decision” to come out. The only “decision” is when (or if) we choose to accept it. Hopefully, when Rabbi S comes back from Asia he will look for resources in the Orthogay community and find a place among us. We are already among you.
September 28th, 2005 at 4:46 pm
We have heard of a gay yeshiva… run by a Conservative woman rabbi. Is this the sort of resource the orthogay community would want?
My fear is that orthodox rabbis who out themselves have nowhere else to go except the conservative and reform movements where they can, ostensibly, find jobs and a sense of community.
That would be tragic. At the same time, the Orthodox community, from far right gay bashers to the most liberal MO aren’t really sympathetic. Everything outside of one’s own personal experience is other. The Torah rejects kadesh and kedeisha both. Cheap sex outside of marriage isn’t okay either.
Are the standards too high? Is everyone a ba’al keri? Are we all tainted?
September 28th, 2005 at 9:52 pm
YES
September 29th, 2005 at 8:53 am
Amazing. Simply Amazing.
The posters on this thread accept as axiomatic that pro-gay propaganda is correct - without any hard scientific evidence, you all clearly believe the whopper-lie that homosexuals are “born that way”.
And you also accept as axiomatic that, as one poster said explicitly, “the problem is the Torah.”
In other words - the main goal is to be enlightened, modern, cool - and the Torah’s insistence on its transcendent truth is “problematic”, an obstacle.
After all, what moral weight could *possibly* countermand everyone’s (G-d given?) right to their “lifestyle choices”….
That’s all it is? A matter of communal pressure and lifestyle, of “cutting a deal” that lets one navigate as widely as possible in the general society?
Does ANYONE here get it - that being an Orthodox Jew - “modern” or any other type - actually involves critiquing that culture, articulating the Torah view - which in this case is far more human and idealistic than what’s on offer in the secular society - and if necessary, NOT GOING ALONG with the a debased Western amorality.
And the Torah? The Torah is not just a set of restrictive rules that spoil our fun - it is a pathway to holistic growth and fulfillment. The Torah clearly articulates a healthy sexuality that is in harmony with the higher human faculties of love, devotion, trust, and emotional support. THAT is why homosexuality is forbidden.
Yes that’s right, folks - Judaism may actually have something better to offer than what’s out there, and you may actually have to - GASP! - challenge the culture you’ve been sucking up to, and even - GASP! - willingly accept outsider status.
Turning from the fluffy half-truths that the imaginary, electronic, media “everybody knows” - and laying aside emotional appeals - let’s focus on some facts:
There is NO solid evidence that homosexuality is genetic, or immutable.
There is STRONG evidence that environmental factors play a major role in gay identity formation For example: 40 percent of gay men report childhood sexual abuse, compared to just 7-12 percent in the general population. And gays consistently report certain specific dysfunctional patterns in their childhood home - a strained relationship with the same-sex parent being a primary factor.
There is STRONG evidence that gayness is not normal, and that mental distress continues even after all social stigma have been removed. Rates of drug and alchohol abuse, depression, and suicide among gays are 4-5 times the rate in the general population. Those numbers are the same in swinging Amsterdam and in Scandinavia - a generation after full legalization of homosexuality.
There is strong evidence that compulsive promiscuity is the norm for gays - and that they are emotionally incapable of maintaining committed relationships beyond the 18-month mark. Only about 10 percent of gays ever are in a relationship that lasts 5 years - and all these relationships are “open”, with no committment of sexual fidelity. That is, the relationship is distorted to accommodate the powerful drive to promiscuity.
Classical psychological theories by Freud, Jung, Rogers, and others explain all these observed facts - these theories were never disproven, only shouted down.
And there is growing evidence that psychotherapy - or just plain counseling - based on these theories works: that is, when the underlying psychological distress is resolved, the abnormal sexual attractions fade and a normal life can be lived.
Get a clue, folks…
for more detailed discussion of these points:
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September 29th, 2005 at 9:33 am
1. “The problem is the Torah,” was a joke - obviously. But, you have swallowed your own babblybook. Psychotherapy doesn’t work for any other problem, why should it solve this one? The Freudian Torah is false. You are grasping at straws, struggling to justify a profession without scientific basis. Give them meds and it may work, but therapy? Give me a break.
Tell all the neurotics and depressives in psychotherapy to reorient and watch how quickly everything changes. Zap them and maybe that will help. Punish them. That works in some societies.
I know gays who have reoriented themselves and some who can’t or won’t, but at the end of the day, it’s all the yetser hara in disguise, in a bikini or one ear ring.
Yours is myopic thinking. I wish you were right, but while reorientation offers hope for a few, especially bi-sexuals, those who know from their own experience that they are gay aver that what the experts posit ain’t so, and if the experts believe in psychotherapy, they ain’t experts. The medical model wins in every major hospital for a reason. Meds work, but for homosexuality, other than castor oil or boiling in oil, there’s not much a society can do other than be supportive.
inspector clueso
September 29th, 2005 at 11:41 pm
you are a homophobe. research clearly proves that gay men are born that way. just yesterday a highly regarded study came out. it takes a strong person to realize they interpreted the Torah wrongly, and you have obviously not reached that level. your sin’at hinam does not help the thousands of jews born that way and who only wish to find their place in the community.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:13 am
“it takes a strong person to realize they interpreted the Torah wrongly.”
huh?
October 1st, 2005 at 10:25 pm
I was alan stadtmauer student, i knew since day 1 he was a faggot. He deserves the punishment of the worst tortures possible, anyone who has the guts to preach religion, that is a queer should be hung.
October 1st, 2005 at 11:28 pm
I would just like to offer a perspective that is simple yet suprisingly absent from any debate on homosexuality. When a person says he must be “true to himself” what does this mean? What part of him is “himself?” Is it his urges? Is it his intellect? Emotions? We all understand that our physical desires are not who we are, but our emotions and intellect can be more confusing. Chazal say that Shlomo Hamelech’s intellect “fooled” him into transgresing two aveiros (lo yarbeh lo nashim, susim) which means that intellect too can be a yetzer hara. Emotions cannot be considered “ourselves” because it too rooted in the physical. What is then “ourselves?” It is our decisions. The power of choosing, Bechira Chafshis. The final decision to act after receiving all the feedback from these three sources (intellect, emotion & physical urges) is who we really are (a.k.a. the Neshama). I ask you then, why do people confuse “being true to oneself” with being true to their emotions, physical urges or their intellect? If a person chooses to be a homosexual it is not because he is being “true to himself” and “authentic.” Actually he is letting “himself,” the decision maker within, be led astray by his (pick one) emotion, physical urges, or intellect. Actually, he is not being true to himself at all.
October 2nd, 2005 at 7:47 am
interesting.
also enlightening about flatbush is the hung student.
October 2nd, 2005 at 12:06 pm
we live in the 21st century. wake up orthodox world
October 2nd, 2005 at 1:21 pm
what does the twenty first century have to do with timeless truths and transcendent tasks?
The Lord doth neither slumber nor sleep.
October 3rd, 2005 at 9:40 am
Re the above, here’s a letter of mine published in the most recent (as of 10/3/05) edition of the Forward:
To The Editor:
While the article concerning Alan Stadtmauer showed many sides to the issue of gays within the Modern Orthodox world, it unfairly misrepresented the former rabbi’s position. I am one of his former students, and a close friend, with whom he felt comfortable coming out to. In light of that, it troubles me to see the lack of sensitivity coming from the fellow members of my school and overall religious community.
The students quoted in your article who were bothered and surprised at Stadtmauer’s leaving, have not internalized his decision. Imagine being gay, but still loving a religion that informs you that God, who created you, finds your natural way of seeking love and affection an abomination, and something to be repressed. He held on to Judaism for as long as he could, but at some point he needed to free himself from the terrible contradiction our community placed him under. Is it any surprise why someone would leave a religious community which says it loves them, yet forces them to suffer?
And for an alumnus of Flatbush to say that the Orthodox community supports all people in their uphill battles within the religion, shows his/her blindness to the level of homophobia in the community. While most Modern Orthodox parents know their children have sexual relationships with each other — in ways clearly against the written word of the Torah — yet turn a blind eye to it as an inevitable aspect of being a part of modern society, hardly any arms are open to our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. The level of taboo is still high, as your article being newsworthy shows; there is nothing technically worse about homosexuality than premarital sex from a halachik perspective, yet the latter is quietly and privately accepted, while the former is still “surprising”.
A truly moral and sympathetic community would seek to understand the suffering of homosexuals in their midst and openly empathize with them, instead of holding them to a standard higher than they hold themselves and their loved ones.
Signed,
Nachshon Rothstein
October 3rd, 2005 at 11:10 am
1. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Premarital sex is less common where Orthodox commitment is high. The Y of F and MO don’t reflect the entire Orthodox world.
Deviance exists. But, even if you are right and and many have a double standard and fool around, do they announce it in the newspapers?
2. How does the religious community force anyone to suffer? Your friend suffered. He said he no longer wished to be alone. By his public declaration and your defense, you are advocating gay marriage.
Why didn’t he simply find a roomate?
October 7th, 2005 at 3:57 pm
As to your points:
1. (a) I never claimed that Modern Orthodoxy, or the Yeshivah of Flatbush, reflects the entire Orthodox world, but simply that within its own confines, premarital sex — especially if you consider heavy petting and oral sex to be a sexual relationship, as halacha does — is common and accepted by parents. I’m not saying they’re happy about it — though I know some think it’s healthy — but they accept it, nonetheless.
(b) Alan Stadtmauer did not announce anything in any newspaper — he wasn’t even interviewed by the Forward for the article.
2. First, as I said, our community forces homosexuals to suffer because they are not free to seek love and affection, since they’re not allowed to get it from those they seek it from — and that causes them to suffer; if you want to see how, watch the movie Trembling Before God. Also — certainly outside of Orthodoxy — yes, I wholeheartedly support gay marriage. And I think that accepting gay marriage with open arms is a moral imperative for our community if our goal is to keep our loved ones as close to the community as possible. If someone commits a sin — i.e. breaking shabbes in public — we’ll still give him an aliyah in shul, etc, because he’s still a part of the community and we want him to remain a part. We are all a community of sinners (avaryanim), as we say on Yom Kippur. The same attitude ought to apply to gays — and even more so, because one can’t help their own homosexuality. If you don’t agree with that, then you are disagreeing with science that you don’t understand.
3. And to ask why he didn’t simply find a roommate is totally unfair. Let’s say I told you not to get married, just live with your loved one as a roommate — wouldn’t you want to build a life and family together? Are you suggesting that gays are only gay for the sex? Because they have the same desire to build a mutual, affectionate, and loving relationship as everyone else does.
October 8th, 2005 at 7:48 pm
1. Alan Stadtmauer, when he suggested the free dissemination of that email, especially to those with the guts to speak to him and confront the issues, made his views public. It behooves him to set the record straight because right now, erev Yom ha-kippurim, he is a convenient scapegoat. An article by a former student appeared in the Forward which stresses the sense of “betrayal.” As a graduate of Yeshiva University, I am personally affronted that anyone who has completed the Semikhah program can possibly, publicly express theological doubts in the context of seeking answers in the Far East. Avodah Zarah is not gay marriage. He has given the impression that he is a min, and if this is not true, and he simply wants to be gay, let him say so. Otherwise, his is the avla.
As it is, as a role model he has opened the closet door for other orthodox gays who now have an example to emulate. Is this good for them or the Jewish people?
I cannot agree about gay marriage because my Torah, both Oral and Written, rejects gay marriage. My Torah rejects gay marriage for everyone, Jew and non Jew alike.
My God created the gay gene. My God created evil tendencies. Sometimes , (some more than others) we fail. But, once we accept oral sex outside of marriage and the gay agenda, we should know that these activities are not a mitzvah. I am very sympathetic with those who grapple with lust. Most people do.
If A S, who I do not know personally, wants to live his life “out” with a lover, it’s a free country, but giving the impression that his choice to leave Orthodoxy is justified because of issues of gender is disingenous.
When a graduate of RIETS expresses theological doubts about Orthodox Judaism, he owes it to the world to explain his true beliefs. Rabbi Levado has admitted that he’s gay. So, he’s gay. Gays are everywhere, in or out, all around the world.
Like the students, my problem with A S wandering in Asia is wondering about his identity. Aside from being gay, is he a Saduccee, agnostic, or Hindu.
Whatever one’s views of homosexuality, AS has “outed” himself as one who no longer feels bound by halakhah. One can only wonder who and what his theological influences really are and were, and, ultimately, what sort of family he comes from.
If A S loves Judaism but has grappled for many years with theological dillemmas, let’s be frank, do these emanate from Orthodoxy or another stream in Judaism? He can answer that question.
I understand the pain of gay Jews. The Torah has some harsh laws, the din of mamzer among them. Blameless for their status, the Torah which created their problem, nonetheless, permits a mamzer to marry their own kind. No such prescription is given to gays or those who desire an intimate relationship with an animal. I am not comparing gays to animals, other than to argue that the Torah operates within its own system of laws. These laws, Orthodoxy avers, are not man made.
On Yom ha-kippurim, we all have what to answer for: gays, straights, avaryanim. Is the Torah open to revision? This question is central. If A S identifies with the conundrums of his past, let him give credit to the movement which bred them.
October 9th, 2005 at 12:07 am
My knowledge of Alan Stadtmauer is limited to what I’ve been reading in the Forward. It seems he should be admired for being true to himself after obviously struggling for so long. It’s time for traditional Judaism to reevaulate its stance towards homosexuality and do some serious “wrestling.” No one chooses to be gay, and how religious is it to demand that someone remain celibate all his life when he could be in a loving relationship?
October 9th, 2005 at 5:20 pm
I am a parent of two Flatbush students who had the PRIVILEGE of having Alan Stadtmauer as a teacher. Am I happy that he has outed himself. NO. Am I accepting of his newfound lifestyle. NO. But I understand that it is a decision that he and he alone had to make.
I am politically INCORRECT, and will not change because I do not believe that a gay lifestyle is compatable with being an orthodox observant jew. Does that make him a bad person??? I do not know, I am not smart enought to know.
I know that a person who is only five foot two inches tall is incompatable with playing in the NBA successfully. Does that make him a bad person??
Alan Stadtmauer [I am not referring to him as Rabbi, because frankly, he abrogated that position] was a decent man, a fair teacher, and never, and I MEAN NEVER acted in any way or manner to suggest that he would endager any student, or any child. And the fool, who in a previous post implied anything else has to answer to a higher authority this Thursday.
October 9th, 2005 at 6:11 pm
let’s vote.
October 9th, 2005 at 7:54 pm
If outing himself was the only point, everyone can move on.
October 9th, 2005 at 8:32 pm
I think Anonymous wins the Stupid YU Graduate of the week award with his posting.
“One can only wonder who and what his theological influences really are and were, and, ultimately, what sort of family he comes from.”
“If A S loves Judaism but has grappled for many years with theological dillemmas, let’s be frank, do these emanate from Orthodoxy or another stream in Judaism? He can answer that question.”
“If A S identifies with the conundrums of his past, let him give credit to the movement which bred them.”
Pardon me if I’m misreading you, but you seem to be implying that all the *questions* that Rabbi Stadtmauer has grappled with over the years must be from extra-Orthodox influences: Perhaps his parents weren’t Orthodox; perhaps he hung out with Conservative rabbis.
So if Rabbi Stadtmauer had been raised in a perfectly sealed hermetic bubble, then he wouldn’t have been gay? Or wouldn’t have felt a conflict between Orthodox halacha and hashkafa, and his sitzenleben, to use a nice word I was taught at YU?
Sorry, my fellow YU grad, but non-Orthodox Judaisms aren’t the source of doubts; they’re a response to them.
October 9th, 2005 at 8:55 pm
ok.
i apologize to alan stadtmauer. i apologize to his family. I apologize to everyone who is who will hopefully find their own way.
October 14th, 2005 at 1:24 pm
My God. All of you people must be living in a closet. There’s more going on here than one man’s choices. Growing up in northern NJ in the 1990s and going through a complete yeshiva education I can tell you from experience that Rabbi Stadtmauer is not the only gay man amongst you. Nor is he the only one with desires and needs.
I knew many orthodox kids growing up who regularly had sex (full blown intercourse, not just oral sex or what someone liked to call “heavy petting.” A friend of mine was an orthodox rabbi’s daughter who regularly gave blowjobs on school premises just behind the door from where we davened every day. Is that any worse than what Alan Stadtmauer might be doing? Please stop focusing your attentions solely on him.
I believe that this all stems from your own issues and embarrasment about having one of your own leaders coming out and becoming what you (for some reason) fear most.
And if Alan leaves orthodoxy and goes to a conservative or reform shul, what’s so bad about that? Wouldn’t you want to be where people accepted you instead of living amongst hostility? Would you rather he go and pray to jesus instead of hashem?
For once it would be nice for people in the orthodox community to look in the mirror and focus on themselves instead of looking down on people they don’t agree with. You’re only hurting yourselves.
October 14th, 2005 at 4:34 pm
Again neither side understands the other. Why is that so hard? There are norms. People live by them or violate them, remain in a group or leave it. That is life. Get with the program.
October 15th, 2005 at 8:43 pm
Neither side understands the other? If the rabbi’s conflicts are simply over being gay and yet part of the Orthodox community, he is. He has nothing to worry about. He will be accepted and tolerated wherever he wishes to be.
If, however, he’s on an odyssey, seeking religion in the far east, He knows the truth already.
October 15th, 2005 at 10:45 pm
Who said ANYTHING about seeking religion in the far east? He specifically states in his e-mail that he’s looking forward to spending “Rosh Hashanah in Tokyo and Yom Kippur in Bangkok.” Ever travel? Ever hear of people going to Puerto Rico for Pesach? Are they all going to celebrate the day of the dead or some other hispanic/christian ritual? This is my point exactly. You’re always thinking to worst about someone just because their beliefs/choices are different than yours.
October 16th, 2005 at 1:59 pm
When I look in the mirror, I see you.
October 25th, 2005 at 5:30 pm
If Yeshivah of Flatbush should be embarassed about anything, it should be its capability of “producing” alumnis like the one who said Rabbi Stadmauer should “be hung” for this. Shame on you! What is going on in your life that at such a young age, you are so full of hatred and judgement? All of you have something in common w/ Hitler- he also did wanted to put gays somewhere they could not be seen or “bother” his notion of a perfect society!
October 27th, 2005 at 11:55 am
To the Flatbush alum calling Rabbi Stadtmauer a “faggot” I would like to say that I was called a “faggot” many times in high school. I’m 100% straight. You know what? The kid who called me names came out of the closet a few years after we graduated. Most homophobes fear homosexuality because it’s a part of them they don’t understand.
November 2nd, 2005 at 11:21 am
I do not think the alumni that made that harsh comment was talking to the entire homosexual community. The comment was directed personally to Rabbi Stadtmauer. As a religious jew I understand we are living in diffrent times, however the alumni does make a point about trying to preach the bible knowing you are homosexual. I know everyone has their own opinion on how to interperet the bible, but as a princibal and a religious figure he should have been more careful about his decision to come out. I know this is a free country and one is entitled to his/her own decisions to choose, however for the sake of the religion and his former students, he could have gone about his decision in a more conservative fashion.
November 2nd, 2005 at 4:53 pm
1. As a former student of A S, I was shocked when I heard that he was
gay. Despite the fact that we all had suspicions about his sexual
preferences, I chose to believe that as the principal and rabbi of a Yeshiva, he
was obviously not gay. How could someone who put himself through years of studying, strove to the top of the ladder in the Y of F community, and made himself responsible for guiding HUNDREDS of young minds, be so confused the entire time?
Anyone who went to the Y of F knows that it is not simply a place of studying and learning. The teachers and administration have been known to pry deeply into all aspects of student’s lives: social, family, academic, and religious. It is not uncommon for a teacher to talk to a student about every thing from college plans, to their relationship with their parents, to sexual relationships with other students to masturbation. I know first-hand that certain faculty members tend to overstep their roles as educators, functioning as psychologists and sexual therapists while their own lives are in disarray.
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As the head of this institution, we all expected A S to have had rock solid beliefs and faith in the morals that Y of F represents. Religion and orthodoxy aside, somebody who delves so deeply into your life–with such control over your future–better be well equipped to do so. A man with this serious of a personal struggle should have been more responsible and not have accepted such a significant position in the school’s hierarchy. If AS was struggling with his sexuality, and knew that the institution he represents demands a heterosexual lifestyle, he should not have become its leader, ultimately catapulting the student body and alumni into this inappropriate and embarrassing discussion of his private life.
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2. I think the reason a lot of the students are so confused at this point is because AS was a Modern Orthodox role model that we could all relate to. He would lead sessions on seminar
about doubt and faith, and we the students looked to him for guidance in these matters. He showed that it was possible to be a doubting Cosmopolitan New Yorker while at the same time being a God-fearing Jew who never turned his back on his traditions or his community.
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After this fiasco, I wonder whether its possible to question traditions and stray from certain practices, yet still be accepted in the modern orthodox community. The modern orthodox community has always been about breaking down boundaries and walls, walls that are characteristic of the ultra-orthodox. Maybe this saga signals the fact that modern-orthodoxy has really been an all-or-nothing enterprise all along.
November 2nd, 2005 at 5:37 pm
I dont see why the personal religious failings of one man should extend to the beliefs and practices of an entire sect. It is not necessary to conclude that just becuase one man who happened to have been an outspoken advocate of modern orthodoxy couldnt resolve his own inner personal struggle, it is impossible and discouraged to try and think deeper about religion and life which is really the essence of the Modern Orthodox. With regards to A S, I think people should consider leaving this man alone. He did his best in this life, i am sure helped many people in thier lives, taught at least one thing to many people. The fact that he has had a personal religious and complete perspective breakdown (which in the life of a human being sometimes is necessary) does not discredit the good (if any) that he has done in his life. The fact is I think the classic racist argument applies here and that is if you find a person’s personal life choice so personally offensive as to find the need to insult him that person usually has some sort of insecurity with thier own lives. I personally think that A S has a lot of courage to be able to stop lying to everyone including himself, examine his life and try and find happiness.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:52 am
A S is honest. He deserves credit for his honesty.
A S is fundamentally modest. Like Adam, he ran away.
He deserves support, not condemnation.
As to Y of F, an actively heterosexual, cosmopolitan insitutution - anyone who who uses sexual yearnings, their fulfillment or lack thereof, as a means to justify denying the living God’s reality - is intellectually dishonest. We must think with more than our genitalia.
Modern Orthodoxy is not ready to embrace homosexuality any more than adultery. Gays and wife abusers, cheaters and child abusers, even those who cheat on their taxes and in business are welcome in Shul.
November 5th, 2005 at 3:53 pm
I don’t understand those who say that orthodoxy must reexamine it’s stance on homosexuality. The Torah is very clear and does not allow reexamination of the issue. It was not the Rabbis who prohibited homosexuality, but G-d him/herself. Therefore, the only way to reexamine the stance on homosexuality is to reexamine whether we believe G-d is the author of the Torah. If we go that far, I think we will have reexamined ourselves out of Orthodoxy completely. There are some lines which cannot be crossed.
November 5th, 2005 at 8:05 pm
“if we go that far, I think we will have reexamined ourselves out of Orthodoxy completely,” meaning if we doubt?
The Rambam, a modern Orthodox thinker, suggests Anokhi Hashem Elokekha is a commandment to examine the evidence.
Doubt fuels free will.
As to how far modern Orthodoxy can go, right now we have modern Orthodox individuals and all kinds of individuals who are openly gay or known to be gay and they are part of the community whether we like it or not.
The Torah will not change, but society’s attitudes do. The political climate in liberal societies favors the underdog. If gays are discriminated against, as they are, they qualify for some sympathy, if not banquet plaques. The attitude of modern Orthodoxy is sympathetic to the individual, totally opposed to blanket legitimization. Norman Lamm and Walter Wurzburger have addressed these issues without trembling.
November 10th, 2005 at 2:29 pm
judaism is open to examining what exactly something like lashon harah is - for example, can we speak lashon harah about goyim, when is it lashon harah and when is it acceptable. and we know lashon harah is the worse sin available to man - worse than being a homosexual man. so why are we so open to giving different meaning to the definition and boundaries of lashon harah and not the so-called issur in embracing your God-given sexuality?
November 10th, 2005 at 3:39 pm
huh?
this is the best of y of f?
November 14th, 2005 at 8:01 pm
is what the best? a thoughtful, open-minded individual?
is not the goal of every yeshivah to produce well mannered, thoughtful individuals who apply their strong knowledge of Torah to everyday life in our modern world.
get a grip.
November 15th, 2005 at 9:31 am
If you are embracing your sexuality, loosen your grip.
As to the high standards of scholarship at y of f, “and we know lashon harah is the worse sin available to man - worse than being a homosexual man”
1. How do we spell worse?
2. Can you prove this? If so, do so.
Ergo, ” so why are we so open to giving different meaning to the definition and boundaries of lashon harah and not the so-called issur in embracing your God-given sexuality?” Go back to the sources. There is a clear, historic, and explicit precedent for your chosen example, nothing justifying your flying, logical leap.
We are gratified to hear that y of f students are taught to be “well mannered and thoughtful.” Open to society, they already are.
March 12th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
Declaration of Heaven on Earth!
Chant this prayer & we will have heaven on earth:
Dearest, greatest, holiest!
Please give us all, the full heaven on earth!
I thank you, & I worship you.
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Dear blog moderator please allow this immensely important message as a public service message.
Many thanks in advance!
__ Bab-ul-Janna
May 25th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
As a former colleague of Alan, who made every attempt as a woman master educator, not a heterosexual ultra-orthodox Jewish wife and mother, a lot of things make sense. Alan Stadtmauer had serious interpersonal issues with many colleagues and students because he had at tortured soul. His total empathy and kindness to others would markedly and frequently change to cruelty, insensitivity and a lack of willingness as a leader/administrator to hear someone else’s side. The tragedy here is one that is a reality–there will always be people in positions of power who are not ready to admit that perhaps they don’t belong there because of a lack of inner stability. Alan, I hope you read this and perhaps guess at who wrote this post. Don’t eat ever so humble pie now that you have alleviated, perhaps, of some of your inner turmoil, just to make the same mistakes all over again. Regarding your sexuality, I wish you can do what others have done, and remain faithful to the basic unchanged tenets of authentic Torah Judaism. You are not alone because of your sexual needs or proclivities. You are alone because you cannot tolerate imperfection in yourself and other peers. I hope you find happiness now that you no longer need to lead a”double” life. You and you alone can really understand if after 120 years, you will come to your Creator and answer about your actions bein adam lamokom, and in the case of at least this colleague, bein adam lachaveiro. homosexuality is not included in a Torah life. Teshuva is. You may create all the typical verbal sturm and drang you are wont to about how your sexuality and feelings of isolatrion never influenced you in your position at Y of F. I believe that would be your greatest lie of all.
November 23rd, 2006 at 10:23 am
MDSK,
I don’t know who you are, but whichever former colleague of Alan’s you are, your backwards thinking — seing he had a tortured side, and so then pointing fingers, villifying his lifestyle — has nothing to do with whether Stadtmauer should have remained principal. True, many people aren’t ready for promotions, and get them anyway. Which is better?: someone who tries like hell for two years and then leaves, or another who stays devoted his whole life, without ever feeling good about it. Don’t make it seem as if he had any choice.
And to publically label your former friend as a liar points to your lack of close connection to him while still at Flatbush.
November 24th, 2006 at 12:56 am
Does anyone know where he is now?